M8 shutter life expectancy?

[andrea-i]

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7 hours ago, farnz said:

"... not a cause ..."? I respectfully suggest that the logic is erroneous.  Regardless of the incidences of shutter failure in M8's and M9's reported through this forum, the 1/8000th shutter speed could be a factor in shutter failure since it stands to reason that doubling the energy and inertia (from 1/4000 to 1/8000) will inevitably add strain to the mechanical components and stress them more over their life.  Causality can be a complex field when there are a number of variables and unknowns.

Pete.

Pete I totally agree the higher the speed the stronger the impact, but 1/4000 is the speed of any digital leica from M8.2 up till the new M10, but only the m8, m8.2 and m9 seem to suffer the shutter fail issue. 

[farnz]

Andrea,

This is anecdotal evidence based on failures reported on this forum so its reliability is low at best.  For example, I have been fortunate to have 2 M8's, a M9-P, a M240, and a M10 and the shutter failed in only one of my M8's so *potentially* i could claim that only the 1/8000th shutter has failed and the shutters on the other models are sound but that would be clearly ridiculous because the data is extracted from a range of 1.😄  

Suppose for a moment that a total of 10,000 M8's were sold and a total of 100,000 M9's and M9-P's were sold (invented figures of course) and for arguments sake 500 shutters in both groups failed and were reported on this forum.  Then 500/10,000 = 5% M8's shutters failed but 500/100,000 = 0.5% of M9 shutters failed.  

Forum members would state that the same number of M8 and M9 shutters failed and presume that there was a common cause.  In reality, the failure rate would be ten times higher for the M8, no common cause would be reasonable owing to the difference in failure rate and there's likely to be a separate cause or combination of factors behind the higher failure rate in the M8's shutter, one of which *might* be the higher speed, which of course doesn't occur in the other models

If there was a more reliable source of information on shutter failures, such as from Leica, then we could start to make some educated guesses but until there is it's little more than irrelevant anecdotal evidence and deducing trends or patterns from it is a waste of time and will produce meaningless and incorrect conclusions.  This is how potentially damaging internet memes start their lives.

I apologise if I sound like I'm lecturing, I'm not trying to, I just want to point out the fallacy of accepting forum here-say at face value.🙂

Pete.

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[jaapv]

20 hours ago, farnz said:

"... not a cause ..."? I respectfully suggest that the logic is erroneous.  Regardless of the incidences of shutter failure in M8's and M9's reported through this forum, the 1/8000th shutter speed could be a factor in shutter failure since it stands to reason that doubling the energy and inertia (from 1/4000 to 1/8000) will inevitably add strain to the mechanical components and stress them more over their life.  Causality can be a complex field when there are a number of variables and unknowns.

Pete.

Especially as shutter failures tend to be catastrophic mechanical ones with little indication of the cause. we have seen no worn-out shutters here.

[andrea-i]

Ok, I think I follow, surely forums are not a reliable source, and we have more years of forum complains under the poor M8 and M9's than we have on newer models, and even then, all fuzzy data over too many variables.
Out of curiosity, do M8 and 9 share the same copal made shutter model?

[jaapv]

More or less - basically the shutters are the same, but the shutter blades on the M8.2 and M9 run at half the speed.

[farnz]

17 minutes ago, andrea-i said:

Out of curiosity, do M8 and 9 share the same copal made shutter model?

I don't know but I think it's unlikely since the M8 has the Kodak KAF-10500 APS-H sensor whereas the M9 has the Kodak KAF-18500 full frame sensor so the M9's shutter would need to cover more area than the M8's shutter so a different Copal model would be needed.

Pete.

[Dopaco]

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On 19/4/2019 at 16:23, jaapv said:

Más o menos, básicamente, los obturadores son iguales, pero las cuchillas del obturador en la M8.2 y M9 funcionan a la mitad de la velocidad.

If the highest speed 1/8000 of M8 is the cause of faster breakage of the shutter than that of his sisters M8 2 and M9. What would happen if those of us who have M8 limit the use of that speed? ...

 

[a.noctilux]

9 minutes ago, Dopaco said:

If the highest speed 1/8000 of M8 is the cause of faster breakage of the shutter than that of his sisters M8 2 and M9. What would happen if those of us who have M8 limit the use of that speed? ...

 

Not really helpful if you limit the use of 1/8000.

Every shutter trip would use the same tensioning force of the same springs.

Using at 1/4s, 1/125, ... , 1/1000, 1/8000 would do mostly the same constraint to shutter mechanism.

 

[Dopaco]

🤙 OK thanks.

[Jeff S]

On 4/17/2019 at 6:14 AM, jaapv said:

Leica brought the shutter speed down to 1/4000 for noise reduction purposes. The 1/4000 shutter generated more fail posts on this forum than the 1/8000 one.

You’ve said that before, but my recollection is different.  The M8.2 seemed a very reliable machine, not just in comparison to all the M8 issues.  But I’m not privy to any real stats.

Jeff

[jaapv]

Nor have I, I am basing myself on reports in this forum. There were few M8 shutter complaints (other than the sound), and more M8.2 ones.

 

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Nor have I, I am basing myself on reports in this forum. There were few M8 shutter complaints (other than the sound), and more M8.2 ones.

 

I’d rather see a link to the M8.2 complaints; the M8 issues were well known, lots of them.

Jeff

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, Jeff S said:

You’ve said that before, but my recollection is different.  The M8.2 seemed a very reliable machine, not just in comparison to all the M8 issues.  But I’m not privy to any real stats.

Jeff

Let's agree that our recollections are different. Interestingly, nearly all references to M8/M8.2 shutter faults have disappeared from Google, assuming they ever were there in any significant number.

[Jeff S]

As a past owner of 2 M8.2s, I followed related posts closely, and often commented myself about the robustness of the camera (not specific to shutter life), particularly in relation to the M8.  I don’t recall any pushback, or any consistent complaints from any significant  user population, certainly not anything like later known issues with various products....lcd stains, sensor corrosion, etc.  But then I’ve been fortunate, never experiencing any significant issues with any of my Ms since the 80’s.

Jeff

Edited April 26, 2019 by Jeff S

[Dopaco]

15 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

No es realmente útil si limita el uso de 1/8000.

Cada disparo del obturador usaría la misma fuerza de tensión de los mismos resortes.

Si se utiliza 1 / 4s, 1/125, ..., 1/1000, 1/8000, se aplicará principalmente la misma restricción al mecanismo de obturación.

 

Therefore, is the M8 2 and the M9 better than the M8? ..

On Ebay, the prices of the M8 2 and M9 in general are higher than the M8.

Lately I see a price increase in the M9 and M8 2.
Is it for this reason? ....

a greeting

[a.noctilux]

😉

Out of topic, but funny thing...

I'm pleased that my answer in english quoted in spanish (Google traduction that I use also to learn, even if there are so many faults while traducted).

Funny because I'm learning spanish, since not long, and I've read some posts here (in your quotes) in "español" 😉.

Return to topic.

M8, M8-2, or M9 ?

My thinking is that they are "old" now and M9 can develop sensor corrosion even when it had been replaced.

This is 1550€ (in France) affair.

Best add some more money to buy the next generation M 240 family.

In France, the price of M240/M262 can be not that high.

Some hundreds euros more than M9, as I've seen M262 offering for 2500€ (which is sold quickly of course).

 

[jaapv]

9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

As a past owner of 2 M8.2s, I followed related posts closely, and often commented myself about the robustness of the camera (not specific to shutter life), particularly in relation to the M8.  I don’t recall any pushback, or any consistent complaints from any significant  user population, certainly not anything like later known issues with various products....lcd stains, sensor corrosion, etc.  But then I’ve been fortunate, never experiencing any significant issues with any of my Ms since the 80’s.

Jeff

Yes, I can see that point view having owned 2 M8s, Only the first series one from October 2016 had the well-known initial electronic issues,  quickly rectified, for the rest they have been unproblematic, for all I know, still are. Wasn't the LCD stain the M8.2?

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Wasn't the LCD stain the M8.2?

As I noted... M8, too.  My point was that it became a big topic, unlike anything related  to shutter life.  

Jeff

[jaapv]

Yes, but that is because Leica ran out of spares. 

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[Jeff S]

On 4/17/2019 at 6:14 AM, jaapv said:

Leica brought the shutter speed down to 1/4000 for noise reduction purposes. The 1/4000 shutter generated more fail posts on this forum than the 1/8000 one.

In 2011, you concluded that there was no difference in failure rate...

I’d be more concerned about memory failure (not SD card). 😳

Jeff