1/4000 is forever?

[lct]

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[•••] On the Sony A7, you always use mechanical shutter over about 1000. [...]

I'm not trying to say: "Sony is better!" The Sonys have all sorts of issues, 

 

Which A7 are you referring to if i may ask? Are you sure the A7r2 has those issues? My A7s mod is free from those problems but it is not a rangefinder of course and its mechanical shutter is significantly louder than that of my M240. Now i am in silent shutter mode most of the time on that "not better" camera so a silent shutter at all speeds would certainly interest me on the M11, M12 or M13 if i'm not pushing daisies yet .

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[lct]

Has anyone images made at 1/4000 or faster which shows the speed advantage? Please post!

 

Handheld macro in windy environment. 90/4 macro, macro adpter M, f/4, 1/8000s, no Leica body sorry (Sony A7s mod). Speed advantage over 1/4000s? Not so sure but my knees tend to play castanets more and more so i don't take the risk... Also i like the grainy rendering of high isos from time to time (1st pic). Nice to have the choice anyway.

 

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[uhoh7]

Which A7 are you referring to if i may ask? Are you sure the A7r2 has those issues? My A7s mod is free from those problems but it is not a rangefinder of course and its mechanical shutter is significantly louder than that of my M240. Now i am in silent shutter mode most of the time on that "not better" camera so a silent shutter at all speeds would certainly interest me on the M11, M12 or M13 if i'm not pushing daisies yet .

Sorry for late reply. I'm referring to the A7, original version, which has no silent shutter, just EFC on or off. This was also the case in the Sony Nex 5 and 5n.

 

While the A7rii likely has a very different shutter, apparently it's not a good idea to use EFC over 1k, according to Kasson, who is pretty reliable:

 

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3886407

 

Now on the A7, I find the problem does vary with the lens. But Kasson's oscilloscope test looks conclusive to me. Ironically, it's important to switch back to EFC under 1k because of vibration from the mechanical shutter which can occur at lower speeds. This is very easy to forget, and there is no way to custom map the switch....check me there if it can be done on the r2.

 

The oversight on Sony's part, in not offering a mode which automatically turns to mechanical over 1000 and also allowing a simple map is sad, and why Leica will do well for years to come. Sony does have a spectacular 42mp BSI sensor, and with a similar coverglass to the M10 it is a fine M lens shooter, in terms of results. Ease of use....not so much.

[jip]

How does the shutter actually work? If it works like on a Canon then the speed is always the same wether you have 1/2000 or 1/4000 or then the 1/8000. Just the opening of the curtain gets narrower. Am I right? If so, why should 1/8000 not work?

 

 

This is always the case at shutterspeeds faster than the sync speed  

[M11 for me]

This is always the case at shutterspeeds faster than the sync speed

 

Correct. But that was not the point. I think that the relevat point has been covered in prior posts above: Diffraction is the problem that prevents the slit being so narrow that 1/8000s would result. Therefore other technical solutions have to apply.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

At the speed that Leica runs their shutter (designed to be as quiet as possible), any slit width that would produce 1/8000th would be so narrow as to produce diffraction. So the only solution would be to increase the speed of the shutter curtains, not to narrow the split, which would make the shutter more noisy. Leica does not build their own shutters BTW, but buys them from Copal/Seiko, like many major camera makers.

The M8 had an 1/8000th shutter, but after complaints about the noise, they halved the curtain speed for the M8-2.

 

The best solution for high shutter speeds, say up to 1/16000th would be an electronic shutter, i.e. fast read out of the sensor.

 

However, I doubt whether Leica could implement this on the M10, as it would come with a number of implications. A modern camera would need to have 4K capability, to offer focus stacking, post-focus and in-camera panorama options  and to reduce the rolling shutter effect, to make full competitive use of an electronic shutter. It is very doubtful whether the M10 has the processing power and heat management to enable these features. After all, the M10 is not even able to offer video, and certainly not 4K video.

We will probably have to wait for the M11 for meaningful electronic shutter speeds, if at all.

 

BTW, the A7 has an electronic first curtain shutter to enable 1/8000th.

Canon's quiet shutter mode comes at the expense of more shutter lag and a slower mirror (AKA blackout). but is a viable compromise if one needs a quiet DSLR.

 

So you're saying the SL is diffraction limited at 1/8000th and Leica is cool with that in the SL but not in the M10?

 

The SL shutter is LESS noisy than the M10.

 

The A72 and A7R2 do not need ECFS to fire at 1/8000. I own both.

 

I also find it doubtful that the M10 sensor and processor doesn't have the power to read off the sensor. The SL has electronic shutter at higher speeds now. M10 shares a similar sensor and processor. The lack of video is almost certainly due to heat dissipation (and customer feedback) and not processing power.

 

Couldn't it just be something simple like a smaller camera has a smaller shutter assembly (driving the same sized curtains) with a smaller motor and a slightly lower maximum shutter speed is the end result?

 

Gordon

[tobey bilek]

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My Leica R8 has a 1/8000 shutter speed... the Leica S has 1/4000 but has a sensor significantly larger than fullframe so this can't be the problem...

 

1/6000 or 1/8000 should be doable but they simply don't. 

 

Also I rarely need it with a base ISO of 100... 

 

8000 is just a narrow slit that moves across the sensor same as any other wider slit,     sensor size makes no difference.   

 

1/8000 is just the time a portion of the sensor is uncovered even if some portion of the exposure will uncover another part of the sensor.   Total time of some portion being exposed is always the same regardless of slit width, but the larger the sensor.  the longer the timer exposure unless the shutter travels faster.

[jaapv]

So you're saying the SL is diffraction limited at 1/8000th and Leica is cool with that in the SL but not in the M10?

 

The SL shutter is LESS noisy than the M10.

 

The A72 and A7R2 do not need ECFS to fire at 1/8000. I own both.

 

I also find it doubtful that the M10 sensor and processor doesn't have the power to read off the sensor. The SL has electronic shutter at higher speeds now. M10 shares a similar sensor and processor. The lack of video is almost certainly due to heat dissipation (and customer feedback) and not processing power.

 

Couldn't it just be something simple like a smaller camera has a smaller shutter assembly (driving the same sized curtains) with a smaller motor and a slightly lower maximum shutter speed is the end result?

X95G46

Gordon

Sorry for the late reply. No, you should read my post more carefully. I was saying that the shutter curtain speed and slit width determine shutter "speed" The diffraction (I. e. bending of the light rays) I is caused by a narrow slit width. Your SL may well have a faster running shutter as the body size will make damping easier, making the slit wide enough to avoid diffraction. As was the case with the R9.

The M8 with the higher shutter curtain speed was noisier than the M8-2 with the slower shutter.

As for processing power: processing produces heat (in Leica terminology: das Wesentliche ) which is a limiting factor for a small and jam-packed body like the M10.

[makiyo]

When you shoot with Noctilux 0.95 without ND filter on sunny day, you wish it had an 1/40000th shutter

[BerndReini]

When you shoot with Noctilux 0.95 without ND filter on sunny day, you wish it had an 1/40000th shutter

 

1/4000s wouldn't be enough in full at f1 in full sun. ISO 100 is a a pull ISO, which means it leaves less dynamic range than ISO 200, which is he base. Just apply the sunny 16 rule and you realize that even 1/8000s doesn't let you shoot the Noctilux wide open in full sun. You need an ND filter.

[Stealth3kpl]

My Leica R8 has a 1/8000 shutter speed... the Leica S has 1/4000 but has a sensor significantly larger than fullframe so this can't be the problem...

 

1/6000 or 1/8000 should be doable but they simply don't. 

 

Also I rarely need it with a base ISO of 100... 

My M-P240 tells me it does 1/6000 in the exif.

Pete

 

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