M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[calijax]

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5 hours ago, ianman said:

A better external add-on EVF.... fine, a seperate model with built-in EVF complete with video, GPS, WIFI, Bluetooth, Lightroom, coffee maker... great, and call it the "M" if you must... just don't kill the real camera.

I'd love that coffee maker M!

M ergonomics, full frame sensor, and basic modern photography features.....heresy!

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[rosuna]

On 1/9/2019 at 7:44 PM, lct said:

The L mount has not been designed for M lenses and doesn't allow for auto image magnification. Just a compromise M users may accept or not. Don't ask me if i do .

...and none will buy a L camera for using M lenses. An L camera has to be designed for L lenses, and a M camera for M lenses (balance, size).

 

[jaapv]

Plenty of folks here using M lenses exclusively on the CL.  🙄

[rosuna]

14 hours ago, lct said:

A compact SL would compete against the SL folks. We'll see that when pigs can fly.

A compact SL for M lenses makes no sense (we already have that kind of "solution" from many camera makers).

A compact SL for L lenses makes no sense (ergonomics, size, balance).

[adan]

Just to clarify - the actual reported words from Leica:

Quote

Jesko, the product manager for the M suggested that, of course, the electronic viewfinder is a nice addition for the M camera, however, they always see the rangefinder as the number one focusing system for the M. They mentioned Leica did build a prototype hybrid built in EVF M, but they put priority on the camera body design, as it made it too thick.

However, Stefan Daniel added to this, emphasizing there will always be a rangefinder version. However, they are looking at opportunities to have a second model with a built in EVF. They will never swap the rangefinder to EVF, but a second version alongside the rangefinder is very possible in the future.

So no reason to panic, if your love the RF.

_______________________

I did a little experiment, put on my picture-editor/contest-judge hat, and scrolled through the most recent 10 pages of all the various camera-specific photo threads here that might involve M lenses.

(It's a tough job, but someone has to do it!)

Using the "Stopper!" technique - scroll at the rate of 1 picture per second or so, until a picture just screams "STOP!" Which usually has nothing to do with technical quality, but with insight, surprise, "new" uncliché-ed ways of seeing, or the occasional cliché that is so well handled visually that it stands out from the crowd. Flower pix, pet pix, family-snapshot pix tended to miss the cut (but not always!). "It's in B&W" didn't count for much unless the total picture was an attention-grabber (quite a few were). "Oooo, my lens makes pretty blurs" pictures always missed the cut. So did pictures of cameras. Zzzzzz!

In descending order for percentage of stoppers out of 200 recent posts each.

-Leica M9 - no EVF

-Leica CL/TL - size may count for something. Vast majority of stoppers were with native TL/SL autofocus lenses, or R telephotos outside the M range. A handful were with M-mount lenses, but - interestingly - none of them Leica's M-mount lenses (Voigtlander or 7Artisans or "other").

-Monochrom I - no EVF

-Leica film cameras - no EVF

-Monochrom 246 - viewfinder used generally not mentioned

-Leica SL - most with native SL or TL autofocus lenses, no stoppers with Leica M lenses (a couple with C/V M lenses), a handful with R lenses.

-M10 series - viewfinder used generally not mentioned - 1 nice obvious EVF image with Telyt 400.

-Leica M8 - no EVF

-M240 series - viewfinder used generally not mentioned

"Correlation is not causality" - but it just doesn't look like there is evidence that manual lenses on an EVF are a route to special pictures. OTOH, those whose cameras are towards the bottom of the list shouldn't feel bad - perhaps their picture was one of the stoppers.

[lct]

1 hour ago, adan said:

[...] it just doesn't look like there is evidence that manual lenses on an EVF are a route to special pictures [...]

Not sure if anybody's claiming that with respect. What some people simply want is using their M lenses on a compact FF mirrorless body. They can do it on some Sony or Nikon bodies with limitations due to the thickness of the sensor stack mainly. Kolari Vision offers interesting solutions to Sony users but the mod voids the Sony guarantee and the thin sensor stack is fragile somewhat expectedly. Anyway the (at least my) question is not to know if i stand any chance to win the Pulitzer prize, i have none definitely, but if my favorite camera brand for 30+ years can offer a better solution than Nikon or Sony. YMMV.

[LucisPictor]

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I'll wait for the M12 anyway.

[IkarusJohn]

From when I bought my first Leica in 2010 (I know, I’m a relative newbie), the benefits and flaws in the OVF have been pretty obvious. The M10, it seems to me, has taken the OVF to its logical limit, as is apparent from users of the 75 Noctilux-M. 

The strength of the system remains in the 28mm to 90mm range, with usable depths of field. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. But there are flaws inherent in the OVF - fixed central focus and metering patch; focus calibration using a separate mechanical system unrelated to what hits the sensor; inaccurate framing; and guesswork when using wider and longer lenses.  The clip-on EVF largely solves these issues, but as the report says, it is inelegant. That is inconsistent with the whole M ideal, which is elegance in its purest form.

In the same way the M10-P and M10-D are niches within niches, the M10-E would expand what is already a very coherent system. This has nothing to do with the L mount system - that is, apparently, selling well (take note) and will expand beyond what Leica can do on its own with the L alliance.

The is not a zero-sum game. An M10-E would not mean the end of the OVF based cameras - Leica has always been clear on that. Minimalising the M10 (if I can put it that way) shows Leica’s clear commitment in that regard. Similarly, an EVF based M camera would not need an L mount. There will be L mount cameras that do that. It’s just an M variant.  

We’re over thinking this.

Edited January 11, 2019 by IkarusJohn

[setuporg]

@IkarusJohn I forgot what niche does the M10-P address?  The Leica's need to roll out a P of some kind, as they should, and folks assuming a touch screen and a softer shutter sound is worth upgrading?:)

Edited January 12, 2019 by setuporg

[IkarusJohn]

Any of those. “P” versions have been the reality of digital M cameras for a while - a refinement of the standard version, without a red dot. 

If you consider that the rangefinder is the “essence” of an M, then how do the M9-P, M-E, Monochrom, M-P, M246, M262, M-D, M10-P and M10-D fit in?  They are all refinements of three cameras - M9, M240 & M10. 

I think I’d call that a niche within a niche - 9 versions, not counting 6 or so special editions. 

Edited January 12, 2019 by IkarusJohn

[jaapv]

Yes, but there is a difference between supplying a niche within a niche by minor technical and cosmetic changes* and doing major re-engineering, if only in the cost of R&D and subsequent pricing.

*Even the Monochroms took relatively little investment, just the sensor, firmware and some cosmetics.

 

I'm sure that Leica would like to make a hypothetical  EVF "M" camera more attractive to a wider public by using the L mount, possibly selling it with an adapter as a standard accessory. It would spare them the call for EVF-M lenses, like longer M tele's, M zooms, etc.

But who knows, we have been surprised before.

[Chaemono]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb setuporg:

@IkarusJohn I forgot what niche does the M10-P address?  The Leica's need to roll out a P of some kind, as they should, and folks assuming a touch screen and a softer shutter sound is worth upgrading?:)

Don’t forget the spirit level.

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

 

 

I'm sure that Leica would like to make a hypothetical  EVF "M" camera more attractive to a wider public by using the L mount, possibly selling it with an adapter as a standard accessory. It would spare them the call for EVF-M lenses, like longer M tele's, M zooms, etc.

 

To me, almost by definition, no camera should require an adapter for ‘native’ lenses, e.g., M lenses on an M body.  And wouldn’t Leica want to sell more M lenses (providing of course the body is popular and the system can be priced for profit) in addition to L mount lenses?

Jeff

[jaapv]

The definition of "native lenses" is rather vague with Leica, as M, SL and CL are all optimized for the use of M lenses.

And is anybody going to buy a 10000$ lens for a 3000$ body?

[Jeff S]

If I have to use an adapter, then it’s not optimal for me.  Plus I still think M lenses work best on an M (assuming one can focus without aid).

Last I heard, Noctiluxes are popular around these parts, as well as LHSA lenses, APO Summicrons and other.  So, I would say yes... but that’s what companies must gauge.  And of course an EVF-M would not be $3k.

Jeff

Edited January 12, 2019 by Jeff S

[lct]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

If I have to use an adapter, then it’s not optimal for me.  Plus I still think M lenses work best on an M (assuming one can focus without aid).

+1

[Kwesi]

This has been an enjoyable read so far with I'm sure much more to come...but lets face it. The M11 will get the higher pixel count sensor of the upcoming Q, a longer battery life, a built in electronic spirit  level, all the refinements of the M10P and last but not least , its own dedicated add on EVF with Higher resolution than the current visoflex. 

It will be announced in January, start shipping in very small quantities immediatelyt, and all us devotees will stand in line money in hand dying to get one😀

[adan]

WHICH January?

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[Paulus]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Kwesi:

This has been an enjoyable read so far with I'm sure much more to come...but lets face it. The M11 will get the higher pixel count sensor of the upcoming Q, a longer battery life, a built in electronic spirit  level, all the refinements of the M10P and last but not least , its own dedicated add on EVF with Higher resolution than the current visoflex. 

It will be announced in January, start shipping in very small quantities immediatelyt, and all us devotees will stand in line money in hand dying to get one😀

Not according to my source.  It will be announced late 2019 or 2020  but not this januari. There would be more signs if that would be the case.  The only thing on the M 11 which certainly will have a better resolution will be the screen on the back. About sensor and other enhancements nothing is fixed at the moment or at least very top secret. " It is difficult to really improve such a fine camera like the M 10 " within a certain view  of the developers. 

Another thing to ad is, that the M Monochrom 10 might  arrive in a near future. The al la carte line has been a sign in the past of an upcoming type:   https://a-la-carte-configurator.leica-camera.com/?lang=en&DEF=definitions_US

 

[Jeff S]

For those wanting electronic frame lines rather than ones based on the current mechanical masks, Erwin Puts suggests this is doable, at least on an M10 -D.  I assume he means this for any digital M, but maybe the screenless versions offer more space (?)...

An excerpt from Puts....

“The finder is very clear and the bright (white) lines of the frames are well lit. The illumination is by LED's but the frame lines are projected by physical masks. An electronic option would be possible.”

http://photo.imx.nl//blog/files/7bba82fb3a22e9f7e02bbf9124c24cbd-123.html

Jeff