Why M240 users will (not) switch to M10

[Exodies]

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Highlight mine... can you please elaborate?

I felt certain as soon as I hit focus, didn't need to wiggle as I often do on the M240.

 

I was shooting indoors with overcast light coming through the windows. Not much flare about.

[jaapv]

Consider the possibility of parallax inside the VF window.

You are looking at two different images  (of the same motif). They are both physically in differing planes.

If your eye is off centre (skew) with the axis of the tywo images, you will line them up slightly incorrectly.

I would deduce that therefore centering your eye is necessary for optimal focus alignment of the two images, which controls camera focus.

 

If my theory is wrong, please enlighten me.

Spot-on, John.

[jaapv]

My M240 doesn't require eye centering at all. 

That depends on how critical you are for optimal focus. If you are happy with your results it may be that you are doing it right instinctively.

[jaapv]

It's not about flare; it's about alignment. I agree that the M10 seems more susceptible to misalignment, but the principle remains the same.

 

Jeff

Possibly because the eye relief gives more opportunity to decenter the eye.

[Jeff S]

Possibly because the eye relief gives more opportunity to decenter the eye.

That was my guess.... combined with the larger opening. I'm sure Rick could provide the technical aspects... if he still participates.

 

Jeff

Edited July 30, 2017 by Jeff S

[erl]

I was referring to flare Jeff. Erl, i'm not good at theories my friend . Just sharing my modest experience with the M240 but i have none with the M10 admittedly.

Lct, I suspect you are probably doing it 'right' by default. Just for fun, try deliberately 'off-centering' your eye. You will sometimes get a sort of flare because your eye is not properly centered. Bit similar to using a split screen for focussing, especially when stopped down.

[lct]

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Lct, I suspect you are probably doing it 'right' by default. Just for fun, try deliberately 'off-centering' your eye. You will sometimes get a sort of flare because your eye is not properly centered. Bit similar to using a split screen for focussing, especially when stopped down.

 

Does your M10 behave like this really? In the worst off-centered eye position i can still use the focus patch of my M240 contrary to that of my film Ms and M8.2. As i said it too often here (sorry to drivel), the M240's is the best RF i have used since the M3 and it won't be dethroned by the M10 as far as flare is concerned if i read you well.

[jaapv]

Does your M10 behave like this really? In the worst off-centered eye position i can still use the focus patch of my M240 contrary to that of my film Ms and M8.2. As i said it too often here (sorry to drivel), the M240's is the best RF i have used since the M3 and it won't be dethroned by the M10 as far as flare is concerned if i read you well.

You can still use it, but you will have lost exact focus.

[erl]

Does your M10 behave like this really? In the worst off-centered eye position i can still use the focus patch of my M240 contrary to that of my film Ms and M8.2. As i said it too often here (sorry to drivel), the M240's is the best RF i have used since the M3 and it won't be dethroned by the M10 as far as flare is concerned if i read you well.

Actually, I was generalizing about 'all' RF's, not the M10 in particular.

 

I will examine mine again tomorrow, when there is daylight, and my (current) alcohol level has been slept on.

[a.noctilux]

Does your M10 behave like this really? In the worst off-centered eye position i can still use the focus patch of my M240 contrary to that of my film Ms and M8.2. As i said it too often here (sorry to drivel), the M240's is the best RF i have used since the M3 and it won't be dethroned by the M10 as far as flare is concerned if i read you well.

 

Out of curiosity, just compared the viewfinders.

M240, a small bit of "defocussing the patch" when I move my eye around the eyepiece.

 

In M10 VF, it's bigger and clearer view of the focussing patch, no flare.

Miracle of technologie (applaude Leica for that), when I move my eye around, not even a small bit of "defocussing the patch" when it's focussed .

Moving eye around vertical or horizontal focussing patch just stays focused.

Edited July 30, 2017 by a.noctilux

[Jeff S]

Out of curiosity, just compared the viewfinders.

M240, a small bit of "defocussing the patch" when I move my eye around the eyepiece.

 

In M10 VF, it's bigger and clearer view of the focussing patch, no flare.

Miracle of technologie (applaude Leica for that), when I move my eye around, not even a small bit of "defocussing the patch" when it's focussed .

Moving eye around vertical or horizontal focussing patch just stays focused.

The issue is relying on the focus patch when your eye is NOT centered. The M10 is more susceptible than the M240, as discussed in other threads. In other respects, the M10 VF rules.

 

Jeff

[Peter H]

I had my M10 for two months until I dropped it in May and sent it back to Wetzlar. My memory is that the M10's viewfinder is noticeably and repeatedly easier and therefore quicker to focus than the M240's, especially in difficult conditions for focussing such as low light and poorly defined subjects.

 

For the last two days since receiving my replacement M10 I've been concentrating on determining whether that memory was accurate. It was. 

 

I have no reservation whatsoever in saying that the M10 viewfinder is superior to the M240's in every practical respect, at least for my usage.

[Jeff S]

As long as your eye is centered, Peter, which hopefully is your natural position. If you intentionally move your eye off-axis, you may slightly adjust your focus turn.... and that would be a false reading.

 

I agree that in all other respects the M10 VF is superior.

 

Jeff

[a.noctilux]

The issue is relying on the focus patch when your eye is NOT centered. The M10 is more susceptible than the M240, as discussed in other threads. In other respects, the M10 VF rules.

 

Jeff

 

I did move my eye around the large eyepiece (decentered vertical and horizontal) not only "looking around" with fixed eye position.

[Peter H]

As long as your eye is centered, Peter, which hopefully is your natural position. If you intentionally move your eye off-axis, you may slightly adjust your focus turn.... and that would be a false reading.

 

I agree that in all other respects the M10 VF is superior.

 

Jeff

 

 

 

OK, I've tried this with the camera on a tripod and the only time I can get the focus patch to lose correct focus alignment (and that only marginally)  is if I move my eye by moving my head so far from centre into such an unnatural position that I can't actually see more than two-thirds of the view through the OVF. I have to move it to a degree that I would simply never experience in real use.

 

So it is not a problem for me at all. Can this be to do with my natural eye position do you think, or is it more of a hypothetical than real problem?

[Jeff S]

OK, I've tried this with the camera on a tripod and the only time I can get the focus patch to lose correct focus alignment (and that only marginally) is if I move my eye by moving my head so far from centre into such an unnatural position that I can't actually see more than two-thirds of the view through the OVF. I have to move it to a degree that I would simply never experience in real use.

 

So it is not a problem for me at all. Can this be to do with my natural eye position do you think, or is it more of a hypothetical than real problem?

Do you wear glasses? That might help account for different experiences....along with individual eye correction needs. I hope it's not sample variation.

 

Jeff

[Peter H]

Do you wear glasses? That might help account for different experiences....along with individual eye correction needs. I hope it's not sample variation.

 

Jeff

I wear glasses for reading and at the computer but not when using a camera. I just tried the same little experiment with my glasses on but the result was the same.

 

Maybe it is sample variation, but among our eyes rather than our cameras. I hope so.

[jmahto]

I didn't not wear glasses and haven't noticed any issues with misalignment. I shoot with wide open 50 lux and I am fine. I am not going to worry about it.

[Vroon]

Interesting thread. If one uses a fast lens on the M240 is the higher ISO speed such a big deal? If one brought every upgraded camera every 4 years it would be massively expensive.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Exodies]

As the man says, aperture is not an exposure control. It controls how the picture looks.