"Leica M10 - Expect Simplicity" (overgaard.dk)

[exile]

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I am looking forward to the M10 announcement. I'm still an avid M9 user and only have two major wishes for improvement that limit my output and I cannot work around:

- Much better ISO. Obviously this will be the case, but if you consider that this is one of only two wishes, it must be a very significant improvement, like 4 stops. Looking at SL image samples, 4 stops beyond M9 usable ceiling of 1250 looks likely this generation of M so could now be worth the purchase price. YMMV. .

- Live view. I don't want to start carrying long telephotos for my M. What I do miss is the ability to use a close-up filter on my 90 elmaritM for casual close ups. Also the convenience to leave the 21mm viewfinder at home if I just want an ultra-wide angle lens in my pocket to complement a 50/40/35mm normal. Both of these should be achievable using the rear LCD screen without having to carry around another accessory viewfinder.

- improved resistance to viewfinder misalignment and/or easier ability to recalibrate yourself in the field (I imagine liveview would also be useful to check Rangefinder calibration throughout a focusing range).

 

Bonus features not strictly needed but much appreciated:

- ISO wheel highly desirable

- lighter body highly desirable

- weather resistance (though never had a problem with M9)

- larger viewfinder

- thinner body

 

If Leica carry the savings through to the customer of not including video, WiFi, etc, then I support the decision to simplify. I would rarely use these features. However, if Leica want to charge the same money but justify the exclusion of these features just to save 3.8mm body thickness, I have to question the prioritization of a push towards a slightly thinner body.

 

I think it highly likely I will upgrade to the M10 at some point in its production cycle, precisely when will be determined by price point, trade-in deals, and how long my trusty M9 continues to function. I've had my M9 since early January 2010, used every weekend and every trip, and the strange thing is that the more brassing I see, the less likely I am to ever part with it until it has some kind of catastrophic failure. This emotional bond with the camera has really surprised me - it's the first time I've experienced it.

Edited January 17, 2017 by exile

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[edwardkaraa]

I do understand where you are coming from, Peter, but I suspect your wish is not going to happen, as the problems with skin tones stem from a better ability to distinguish colour subleties, probably by the choice of microlens geometry and bayer filter dyes.

This leads to the camera capturing shades of colour that our brain filters out.

My understanding is that cameras with dense CFA have better color separation and can distinguish very subtle nuances and shades of color at the expense of worse high ISO noise. The bad skin tones result in my opinion from the high IR sensitivity. Edited January 17, 2017 by edwardkaraa

[jaapv]

That too, due to a thin IR filter, I've posted it before.

However, my theory is that the enhanced optical architecture of the microlenses which is dictated by the incidence angle issue - well documented in this forum and elsewhere- leads to less crosstalk between the sensels and thus to better colour separation.

[edwardkaraa]

That too, due to a thin IR filter, I've posted it before.

However, my theory is that the enhanced optical architecture of the microlenses which is dictated by the incidence angle issue - well documented in this forum and elsewhere- leads to less crosstalk between the sensels and thus to better colour separation.

I understand but I don't see why better color separation leads to reddish skin tones. I believe only the IR is the culprit.

[earleygallery]

If Leica carry the savings through to the customer of not including video, WiFi, etc, then I support the decision to simplify.

 

LOL! You can live in hope I guess! 

 

Savings to not include video when the camera has live view would be minimal if anything.

[almoore]

The bad skin tones result in my opinion from the high IR sensitivity.

 

That is exactly the cause of the magenta bias you see in so many Leica images.

 

One of the reasons Canon cameras are so popular - despite their sensors testing badly against the competition - is the absolute neutrality of the files they produce. Leica should be more upfront about the fact that IR contamination didn't start and end with the M8 and advise people accordingly of the best ways to deal with the problem.

Edited January 17, 2017 by almoore

[Paul J]

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The latest "leaked" photo has an IR filter over the lens, I don't take that as a very good sign.

[edwardkaraa]

The latest "leaked" photo has an IR filter over the lens, I don't take that as a very good sign.

Many M240 owners use IR cut filters to remove the purple blacks and reddish skin. I don't think there is a solution to this problem with the thin cover glass that has to be used on M bodies.

[Paul J]

Yeah I know, but still disappointing though.

[keithlaban.co.uk]

The M9 is, so far, my favorite digital Leica as well. In fact I use two of them, and I'm likely to purchase one more.

.

 

 

M9 is still king. It's got soul.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

As I said my M9 is my favourite digital Leica and I'm never happier when strolling around with it complete with single lens.

 

Unfortunately my M9 is also my least used digital Leica because for the majority of my work it simply doesn't meet my needs. This is where flexibility and options kick in.

[jaapv]

I understand but I don't see why better color separation leads to reddish skin tones. I believe only the IR is the culprit.

If you use an IR filter it does get better, but not completely so.

The problem is magenta. Magenta can be produced by flawed Bayer interpolation as green pixels are in the majority.. Crosstalk could be a cause.

(Just a theory of mine )

[ramarren]

I do understand where you are coming from, Peter, but I suspect your wish is not going to happen, as the problems with skin tones stem from a better ability to distinguish colour subleties, probably by the choice of microlens geometry and bayer filter dyes.

This leads to the camera capturing shades of colour that our brain filters out.

 

 

I find this a bit amusing because I never liked the default M9 JPEG palette all that much to begin with. I only found the M9 useable with raw captures and either Adobe or my own custom calibration profiles. 

 

The M-P typ 240, the M-D typ 262, and the SL typ 601 all have a significantly more accurate (and, to my eye, more pleasing) color palette with better skin tones and without weird color shifts in other colors. 

 

The M-D stuns me sometimes with just how beautiful its color captures are ... all DNG raw, rendered on the defaults with Lightroom 6.8. The M-P and SL are often just a little bit flat processed the same way, but not that far off either. I've only ever seen the 'red skin' problem with the M-P or SL when used without the correct Adobe camera calibration profile (either the original typ 240 one or the one embedded in the DNG file). 

Edited January 17, 2017 by ramarren

[jaapv]

Well, your experience matches mine. I am perfectly happy with the M240 colour, although I admit it took me a bit of time to settle in the workflow after M8 and M9. The only real problem I ran into was an nearly uncorrectable yellow-orange shift in tropical noon sun, traced back to IR contamination.

I wouldn't know about JPEG, though, never  needed to use it seriously.

[Printmaker]

I am looking forward to the M10 announcement. I'm still an avid M9 user...

 

I think it highly likely I will upgrade to the M10 at some point in its production cycle, precisely when will be determined by price point, trade-in deals, and how long my trusty M9 continues to function. I've had my M9 since early January 2010, used every weekend and every trip, and the strange thing is that the more brassing I see, the less likely I am to ever part with it until it has some kind of catastrophic failure. This emotional bond with the camera has really surprised me - it's the first time I've experienced it.

 

I'm with you. I love my M9. But I do have a M10 on order. My M9 is in the shop getting its second new sensor and for that reason alone, I decided to replace it. But my Monochrom... out of my cold dead hands...

[Stonewall Brigade]

I would potentially trade my rather new M (TYP262) for a new M10 mainly to get the live view, which I often wish I had into M262, and would find useful in framing when I do tripod-mounted flower and landscape photography.  Just like the live view on tieback of my Q. It makes it easier on my old knees to not always have to get down low on the ground to frame my subject. The newest edition Maestro II sensor would also be desirable.  I don't shoot above ISO 200 much, so the M10's advantage in that area would be of less importance to me.

 

My ideal M camera body would be a lot like the Q's live view screen, menu options, and ability to move around a focus point with ease.

[hollisd]

I would potentially trade my rather new M (TYP262) for a new M10 mainly to get the live view, which I often wish I had into M262, and would find useful in framing when I do tripod-mounted flower and landscape photography.  Just like the live view on tieback of my Q. It makes it easier on my old knees to not always have to get down low on the ground to frame my subject. The newest edition Maestro II sensor would also be desirable.  I don't shoot above ISO 200 much, so the M10's advantage in that area would be of less importance to me.

 

My ideal M camera body would be a lot like the Q's live view screen, menu options, and ability to move around a focus point with ease.

 

 

Shout out to the Tar Heel. Carolina Basketball School alum (4 years); my mother and brother both went to UNC. I'm a big hoops fan although less these days with early defectors plus living abroad. 

 

Please have a shrimp and grits for me at Crook's Corner; a veggie plate or meat and three at Mama Dip's. Beat Dook! 

Edited January 18, 2017 by hollisd

[colonel]

I personally feel the M-240 will go down in history as the most capable of the digital rangefinder Leica ever made judging by what is on the horizon

I love the 240 and I hope the concept continues

 

That is a simple and subtle but with hidden technology working for you

Of course the MP, DR, EVF and others will be incrementally improved in the next 240 equivalent

 

I would like some other surprise functionally as well. Personally I would love a 4G data connection to auto upload RAW and/or JPG but that's just me

[microview]

I would potentially trade my rather new M (TYP262) for a new M10 mainly to get the live view, which I often wish I had into M262, and would find useful in framing when I do tripod-mounted flower and landscape photography.  The newest edition Maestro II sensor would also be desirable.  I don't shoot above ISO 200 much, so the M10's advantage in that area would be of less importance to me.

 

My ideal M camera body would be a lot like the Q's live view screen, menu options, and ability to move around a focus point with ease.

 

Well we shall see in a few hours' time. Still disappointed to see the weight is allegedly greater than the 262's though.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ramarren]

I looked at the "leaked" photos over on leicarumors.com just now. It looks like Leica has done what I expected: they put the lens mount on a short pedestal to enable the body to be slimmed elsewhere, put an ISO dial where the film rewind on a film Leica might go, and they simplified the button controls (no more MENU and SET, just MENU, etc) down to three buttons. Like the typ 240, it has live view and takes an EVF. And they put in WiFi, a faster drive mode, etc. All well and good, although if I was going to "expect simplicity", I can't honestly say I see a lot more simplicity in this new model than I did in the M-P typ 240. The only real simplification is the fact that the menu is now integrated between SET and MENU, and they've implemented a Favorites MENU page.

 

(Personally, I'd have used the dial for exposure compensation and left the ISO in a menu or on the thumb dial—I operate my cameras in aperture priority exposure mode most of the time and adjust EC far more frequently than I change ISO settings.) 

 

But and however, the large LCD, the buttons, and the four-way toggle controller consume most of the real estate on the back of the camera. Which means it doesn't do what the M-D does for me: give me adequate room to grip the camera and rest my thumbs without hitting a control or resting my fingers on the LCD. Since I don't really need an EVF, live view, WiFi, or 5 fps in an M camera—or even an LCD and a slimmer body for that matter—that's a more significant consideration to me than those new features. 

 

I'll stick with my M-D and wait to see if/when the M-D equivalent in the M10 line surfaces. 

[jmahto]

It seems that thumb grip is bigger (than M240).

Edited January 18, 2017 by jmahto