Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[EoinC]

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Not sure what experience you have with Sony cameras but my Sony A7s mod looks as robust as my Ms. Its menus are messy indeed but several buttons are programmable contrary to the M or the SL so that i find it a superior camera as far as ergonomics are concerned at least. 

I agree. I find my A7R offers features that are very useful for specialised shooting, particularly for my failing eyesight using an iPad for remote focusing in waterdrop photography, and using MP-E 65 and TS-E lenses lens. I don't use it often, but it does things none of my other cameras can.

[IkarusJohn]

...

So I'm curious, since Sonys are actual full frame cameras capable of taking pictures, why do you not consider them to exist?

Of course they exist. Are you asking why I'm not counting them in my assessment of the X1D and the SL?

 

First, I don't see the Sony A7 series as being relevent to consideration of the SL - they're chalk and cheese. The Sony's underlying design philosophy is what can be achieved, whereas the Leica is driven by what the photographer needs. Both may succeed on these objectives to varying degrees.

 

My take is if you want the most MP in the smallest package with the best technology, the Leica (any Leica) is going to be an expensive bauble for dilletantes. Whereas if you get the Leica, the Sony is likely to have zero appeal.

 

I've had a couple of Sonys - we didn't get on.

Edited September 3, 2016 by IkarusJohn

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[leica5]

Of course they exist. Are you asking why I'm not counting them in my assessment of the X1D and the SL?

 

First, I don't see the Sony A7 series as being relevent to consideration of the SL - they're chalk and cheese. The Sony's underlying design philosophy is what can be achieved, whereas the Leica is driven by what the photographer needs. Both may succeed on these objectives to varying degrees.

 

My take is if you want the most MP in the smallest package with the best technology, the Leica (any Leica) is going to be an expensive bauble for dilletantes. Whereas if you get the Leica, the Sony is likely to have zero appeal.

 

I've had a couple of Sonys - we didn't get on.

 

My bad I just received a Sony A7R2 with Techart pro adaptor to try out Noctlux M.

[lct]

Photographer needs vs technology... Reminds me when the Nikon F appeared half a century ago. The SL will have more success than the Contarex hopefully but Sony and Hasselblad look indeed closer as far as philosophy is concerned. Both seem to be convinced that the photographer needs are not to have a bulky camera.

[Jeff S]

Photographer needs vs technology... Reminds me when the Nikon F appeared half a century ago. The SL will have more success than the Contarex hopefully but Sony and Hasselblad look indeed closer as far as philosophy is concerned. Both seem to be convinced that the photographer needs are not to have a bulky camera.

 

Many cameras these days are small (some too small IMO).  But small doesn't always equate to simple user interface and controls, a key design philosophy.  You think the Sony and Hasselblad are similar in the latter regard? 

 

Jeff

[lct]

Did i say this?

Edited September 3, 2016 by lct

[Jeff S]

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Photographer needs vs technology... Reminds me when the Nikon F appeared half a century ago. The SL will have more success than the Contarex hopefully but Sony and Hasselblad look indeed closer as far as philosophy is concerned. Both seem to be convinced that the photographer needs are not to have a bulky camera.

 

It's what this doesn't say regarding philosophy (assume you mean design philosophy) that I addressed.  So I asked you what you thought about it.

 

Jeff

Edited September 3, 2016 by Jeff S

[lct]

I just referred to bulk above but aside from the Sony menus, i could have said ergonomics as well although i feel than both Sony-Zeiss and Hasselblad AF lenses are too bulky for my taste.  

[Guest]

I just referred to bulk above but aside from the Sony menus, i could have said ergonomics as well although i feel than both Sony-Zeiss and Hasselblad AF lenses are too bulky for my taste.  

 

The X1D has a touch screen. I am not sure that I could live with that, it is after all the main reason I sold my T. To begin with it feels intuitive but after a month or two, one soon tires of poking the screen and cleaning it every other day........

 

Bulky lenses, seems one cannot have ultra fast lenses without bulk. 

[lct]

f/3.5 doesn't sound that fast on a 44x33 format. I don't know if the X1D can work with manual lenses though.

[Jeff S]

The X1D has a touch screen. I am not sure that I could live with that, it is after all the main reason I sold my T. To begin with it feels intuitive but after a month or two, one soon tires of poking the screen and cleaning it every other day........

 

 

 

According to Ming Thein, one doesn't need to use the touch screen for much; hard buttons suffice for most actions.

 

Jeff

[Guest]

According to Ming Thein, one doesn't need to use the touch screen for much; hard buttons suffice for most actions.

 

Jeff

 

Lets see, I am waiting for my demo session, then I can judge for myself whether I would tire of the novelty of a touch screen interface.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

f/3.5 doesn't sound that fast on a 44x33 format. I don't know if the X1D can work with manual lenses though.

 

 

DOF equivalent of about f 2.5-2.6 on 35mm. But with, IMHO, much nicer focus transitions. The X1D won't ship with an electronic shutter so native and adapted Hasselblad lenses only at this stage.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

 Whereas if you get the Leica, the Sony is likely to have zero appeal.

 

 

I have both. The A72/R2 is a great camera but in a different way to the SL. IBIS with ALL lenses (even adapted ones) and a flippy screen are the standouts for me but there are other things the SL can't/won't/should do that the Sony system does easily and effectively. I still don't understand why a SL user would have *zero* interest in a Sony. It's not like the SL is a beacon of perfection. It's a fine camera and I use mine almost every day but it's got some cavern sized holes in its firmware still and it could use an articulated screen, among other things. Having both the Sony and SL I can certainly say that for every compromise of the Sony there is also one for the SL. I can name a dozen advantages the SL has over the Sony and a dozen the Sony has over the SL. Which is superior is purely a personal decision and there are those who see merit in both systems.

 

Gordon

[Jeff S]

Lets see, I am waiting for my demo session, then I can judge for myself whether I would tire of the novelty of a touch screen interface.

 

Indeed, the only way to know is to try.  I went to a demo a couple of months ago, but the firmware was preliminary and functions were limited.  I'll rent the camera for at least 4 days when it's ready.  The EVF viewing will be my top priority....if that suits, then there are various other evaluation criteria for me to consider, including menu interface, ergonomics and controls.

 

Jeff

[ramarren]

f/3.5 doesn't sound that fast on a 44x33 format. I don't know if the X1D can work with manual lenses though.

 

 

Compared against APS-C (16x24mm) format, the crop factor is 1.9x. The X1D 45mm f/3.5 lens behaves similarly to a 23mm lens on APS-C format with respect to field of view and exposure, and at f/5.6 it produces DoF similar to what that 23mm lens on, say, a Fuji Xx body would at f/2.8. 

 

Compared against 35FF format, the crop factor is 1.3x. So the X1D 45mm f/3.5 lens behaves similarly to a 35mm lens with respect to field of view and exposure, and at f/5.6 it produces DoF similar to what that 35mm lens on a 35FF body would at f/4. 

 

The X1D requires an in-lens shutter mechanism so you can't very easily adapt any old lens to the camera.

[Jeff S]

We'll see, however, if the X1D eventually incorporates an electronic shutter in firmware.

 

Jeff

[ramarren]

We'll see, however, if the X1D eventually incorporates an electronic shutter in firmware.

 

 

That would be neat, but eh? ... If I buy the X1D, I'm likely to buy only Hasselblad lenses for it. I've been through the adaptation game over and over again during the past decade. With few exceptions, and without counting Leica's efforts to provide adaptation for their own lenses to their new bodies (which has worked out very well indeed), it was far less productive to adapt something than to just buy the current offering from the manufacturer. 

[Jeff S]

That would be neat, but eh? ... If I buy the X1D, I'm likely to buy only Hasselblad lenses for it. I've been through the adaptation game over and over again during the past decade. With few exceptions, and without counting Leica's efforts to provide adaptation for their own lenses to their new bodies (which has worked out very well indeed), it was far less productive to adapt something than to just buy the current offering from the manufacturer. 

 

Same here, I don't use adapted lenses.  When I commit to a camera, it's a system that I'm buying into, including the lens line.  Fortunately, besides not being an adapter, I'm typically not an early adopter, which takes away some of the frustration that comes from manufacturers not releasing road maps for future lenses (e.g., Leica).

 

Ming Thein has, however, raised the issue of a potential FW update in the X1D.

 

Jeff

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[steppenw0lf]

In current telephones with built-in camera it is already today the case that the camera shoots continually pictures (that in a way it is filming). And when the "button" is pressed the camera selects and saves this image. And if the quality is too poor the camera sums the information of several pictures up to combine them into an "optimized" image. This is the case for iphones. (since iphone 5s).

 

I wonder why this principle is not used in mirrorless cameras as well ? Maybe there is a technical problem ? The sensors produce maybe too big an amount of data and the processors are maybe to slow to combine the data real-time ?

Or a completely different problem ? Anyway this is probably the future (or one possible future) for consumer grade cameras.

 

(But I doubt that the current processors are fast enough for the current high-resolution sensors. In the case of the SL as well as X1D)

Edited September 4, 2016 by steppenw0lf