Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[lx1713]

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Quite a few of us owns VC 10,12mm lenses that are ff. So if Leica can deliver a medium format L-mount. A MF 120 - 130 degree angled lens with less vignetting will be quite unique in the MF realm. And they will not be competing directly with the VCs.

 

It will be huge even at f8 in order to reduce vignetting.

 

I based my guesses on a Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 23mm f5.6 with 39mm Leica thread mount, 75mm outer barrel diameter. For a 33x44mm - 37x49mm sensor. The rear glass element to focal plane is 16 mm. Vignetting is about -2 to -3 stops.

Obviously a wider lens design is going to be quite different.

[Paul J]

I'm pretty sure I would buy a medium format L mount.

 

If I can combine Leica lens aesthetics, with medium format and the flexibility of mirrorless it might just be a silver bullet camera for me that solves much of my needs and may just be the camera I have been waiting for.

 

Having the S lenses to start with is a very good place for Leica to be in. Some of the nicest medium format lenses going.

 

Being able to bring forward all my M lenses in a tuned ecosystem would be the most amazing thing ever. Even if it were in a crop mode. That sort of thing would make, I imagine, high quality 4K motion footage too with low rolling shutter, using just the 35mm portion of the sensor.

 

Add some SL lenses where needed for what ever job requires them.

 

Of course being open to adapt other lenses is a major draw card.

 

Really hope we'll see this some day. Some day soon would be even better.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Paul J

[frame-it]

imagine an SL sized 36MP MF, L mount with a few new CS L lenses

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Gordon - I’m interested in where you get to with the M. I’ve rarely touched mine since getting the X1D. However, it’s still a compelling travel camera I think.

 

Currently at Kangaroo Island waiting for the sun to rise. On this trip I brought the three SL zooms, the SL75, the SL and also the CL (to use as a teleconverter on the 90-280) and so far this setup has proved versatile and fun. However, it’s also bulky and heavy!

 

For Europe later this year, which will be more walking around with the family and plenty of dark indoor venues (restaurants, museums etc) I’m thinking the M with its small, fast glass might to the trick, with the X1D as my second body for when I want AF and for more methodical landscape/cityscape work.

 

So many good cameras...

 

Hi Alistair,

 

1st world problems but here goes....

 

The M is a conundrum for me. I adore the simplicity, handling, menus, lenses and IQ. On the other hand my vertical is off on my M10 again. It'll take me all of 10 minutes to fix but..... I should cull my M gear but I'm emotionally attached to it. I also hardly touch it since getting the X1D. Nothing I've used does long exposures like the X1D. The 645Z got close. The M, I would use more except for the LENR and short exposure times.

 

For lightweight and travel I carry a PenF. With the 1.2 lenses, Panny Leica Zooms and IBIS I can shoot in places I never though possible. I also keep a RX1Rii in the bag for the high resolution and high ISO. For the Leica look I have a CL....

 

I didn't think I'd like the CL. I was hard on it because it's missing some basic stuff. And I still think they could have done better. But the lenses are great and it's flexible. I bought it to compliment the SL (using the CL wide zoom and macro) which I use for work. The CL does this and is a fine portable camera. The 35 is too big. The rest are great. Often I leave them at home because of the lack of IS.

 

For long lens work I have a choice of either the Olympus or Sony.

 

For travel I'd probably just take the X1D. And the PenF for small and light. I did that in Cuba and it was fantastic. For Namibia it's the X1D and a Sony A7R3 (I want resolution for the long lenses).

 

That leaves the M in a strange position. I don't know where to use it, as much as I like it. 

 

Gordon

[sillbeers15]

I'm pretty sure I would buy a medium format L mount.

 

If I can combine Leica lens aesthetics, with medium format and the flexibility of mirrorless it might just be a silver bullet camera for me that solves much of my needs and may just be the camera I have been waiting for.

 

Having the S lenses to start with is a very good place for Leica to be in. Some of the nicest medium format lenses going.

 

Being able to bring forward all my M lenses in a tuned ecosystem would be the most amazing thing ever. Even if it were in a crop mode. That sort of thing would make, I imagine, high quality 4K motion footage too with low rolling shutter, using just the 35mm portion of the sensor.

 

Add some SL lenses where needed for what ever job requires them.

 

Of course being open to adapt other lenses is a major draw card.

 

Really hope we'll see this some day. Some day soon would be even better.

 

No need to wait, the S (type007) is already available, just need to buy.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

No need to wait, the S (type007) is already available, just need to buy.

 

But that doesn't cover Paul's listed requirements. Or mine.

 

I love the S007 files and the lenses. But mirrorless has too many advantages. After the SL the single focus point and lack or exposure preview is hard.

 

Gordon

[tom0511]

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I really like the size of the x1d but I also really like the speed of the SL (specially the short blackout time). The SL feels much faster in use for me and specially the primes let the IQ advantage of larger sensor shrink IMO. SO I use the x1d less often than expected at the moment. (this might be different if I was shooting mainly landscape)

[IkarusJohn]

Hi Alistair,

 

1st world problems but here goes....

 

The M is a conundrum for me. I adore the simplicity, handling, menus, lenses and IQ. On the other hand my vertical is off on my M10 again. It'll take me all of 10 minutes to fix but..... I should cull my M gear but I'm emotionally attached to it. I also hardly touch it since getting the X1D. Nothing I've used does long exposures like the X1D. The 645Z got close. The M, I would use more except for the LENR and short exposure times.

 

For lightweight and travel I carry a PenF. With the 1.2 lenses, Panny Leica Zooms and IBIS I can shoot in places I never though possible. I also keep a RX1Rii in the bag for the high resolution and high ISO. For the Leica look I have a CL....

 

I didn't think I'd like the CL. I was hard on it because it's missing some basic stuff. And I still think they could have done better. But the lenses are great and it's flexible. I bought it to compliment the SL (using the CL wide zoom and macro) which I use for work. The CL does this and is a fine portable camera. The 35 is too big. The rest are great. Often I leave them at home because of the lack of IS.

 

For long lens work I have a choice of either the Olympus or Sony.

 

For travel I'd probably just take the X1D. And the PenF for small and light. I did that in Cuba and it was fantastic. For Namibia it's the X1D and a Sony A7R3 (I want resolution for the long lenses).

 

That leaves the M in a strange position. I don't know where to use it, as much as I like it.

 

Gordon

Intersting conundrum, Gordon. Evey time I pick up my Monochrom, I’m taken (again) by the simplicity of its use and its wonderful handling (the lack of live view and the sound of the shutter don’t bother me at all), and the images are fantastic. I do worry about whether or not the lenses and the rangefinder are calibrated, but generally that is a small matter covered in the main by depth of field.

 

When I’m heading out the door, the SL with 24-90 tends to be my first choice. For travel, it then becomes a battle of wills - I usually take a decent bag; there’s no point in having all this gear if there isn’t a decent chance of using it so I take a good selection of lenses, but then I know I take better pictures if I’m thinking about the images rather than the gear.

 

I can see the benefit of the X1D and a single lens, in the same way as I think of the M system. Adding things makes it harder for me. I won’t be going the X1D route for a while. As an amateur, the SL and zoom, with the TL2 and wide zoom, covers everything I could need - the gains of the larger sensor in the X1D are too marginal to justify the cost.

 

For travel, the Monochrom, 50 & 28 Summiluxes and TL2 with wide zoom (and L-M Adapter) covers everything from 17 to 75 in 35mm field of view.

 

I can’t help but think that if I decide to rationalise my photography (again), it will be back to the M system, despite its limitations ...

Edited May 12, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[thighslapper]

I can see the benefit of the X1D and a single lens, in the same way as I think of the M system. Adding things makes it harder for me. I won’t be going the X1D route for a while. As an amateur, the SL and zoom, with the TL2 and wide zoom, covers everything I could need - the gains of the larger sensor in the X1D are too marginal to justify the cost.

 

 

 

That's the issue I continually come back to ....... if the system cost differential was marginal I would be tempted to jump ship ....... but I have too much invested in high end Leica gear to shell out a large amount of cash for pixel peeping benefits that just could not be justified economically. And that's from someone who is chronically financially incontinent and can find the money and excuse to buy almost anything I fancy ...... 

 

For once I can resist the temptation.... mainly as I am not is any way dissatisfied with the results from the SL as my main camera and CL as my lightweight 'just in case' travel companion. 

Edited May 12, 2018 by thighslapper

[meerec]

 

For once I can resist the temptation.... mainly as I am not is any way dissatisfied with the results from the SL as my main camera and CL as my lightweight 'just in case' travel companion.

 

 

I’m not in any way dissatisfied with the results from my SL. And I added CL to my bag and keep adding more and more lenses between SL and CL. Compared my shooting results to X1D one year ago, and concluded I can safely stay with the SL and not be distracted by the X1D. I’ve posted today in another thread. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/284381-slprimes-vs-medium-format/?p=3517551

[Jeff S]

I’m not invested in the SL, so the X1D remains attractive for the size benefit compared to the SL with native zooms. But it would help to know if a second XCD zoom is coming besides the 35-75. I don’t need the reach of the 90-280 and would gladly accept a more narrow range.

 

Jeff

[sillbeers15]

But that doesn't cover Paul's listed requirements. Or mine.

 

I love the S007 files and the lenses. But mirrorless has too many advantages. After the SL the single focus point and lack or exposure preview is hard.

 

Gordon

 

 

Mirrorless imaging is just an alternative to OVF. It has nothing to do with image quality or your required field of photography application (unlike AF capability on sports & wildlife photography),.....I see it as asking for the stars to be aligned instead of asking for core that matters.

Besides, shouldn't the wait be on the next S to be possibily a mirrorless camera?

I do not see the L mount going to become a MF system unless Leica wants to combine S & SL into one system,...meaning less sales & less profit.

[frame-it]

why would that mean less sales and less profit ? they have most of the tech already...and a user base...if its priced right  they might have huge sales..and not much additional R&D costs

Edited May 13, 2018 by frame-it

[sillbeers15]

why would that mean less sales and less profit ? they have most of the tech already...and a user base...if its priced right  they might have huge sales..and not much additional R&D costs

 

That would cannibalise the S sales unless there is a new differentiating factor to move the new S008 ahead to the next level of MF game changing position.

Plus the SL if becomes medium format, will have to fight head on with the other MF brands,...and let the FF of leice become a void??? 

You can see clearly that Leica will not equip the TL & CL so well till it canabalizes sales from SL, that is just rule 101 of product development strategy.

That is why the M stays pure on only 'manual focus' with RF mechanism. Taking that away and adding in more will just be killing the M. Therefore Leica set up the SL to move into auto focus FF camera. I've already said that pre SL days that Leica will develop AF mirrorless camera as that would be the only way to make customer buy new AF lenses to generate more sales revenue. If all of us just buy SL body and stick to M or R lenses, Haha, Leica will just go into the next round of receivership!

[frame-it]

could be 2 SL models one 24MP FF [ $5k ], one 36MP mini-MF [ $8k ] Both "L" Mount ? and a 100MP MF S008 [ $12-15k ] ?

 

 

but i get your point.

[Jeff S]

and a 100MP MF S008 [ $12-15k ] ?

 

Good luck with that, with the S007 already at $20k.

 

Jeff

Edited May 13, 2018 by Jeff S

[sillbeers15]

could be 2 SL models one 24MP FF [ $5k ], one 36MP mini-MF [ $8k ] Both "L" Mount ? and a 100MP MF S008 [ $12-15k ] ?

 

 

but i get your point.

 

 

Hahah,...you're still new to Leica Price point?

 

Maybe 36MP MF @ $25k and 100MP MF @ $50k,.......would that be your cup of tea?

[frame-it]

nope..im not new to their prices.

 

 

 

 

Hahah,...you're still new to Leica Price point?

 

Maybe 36MP MF @ $25k and 100MP MF @ $50k,.......would that be your cup of tea?

[Chaemono]

Since we‘re all playing the guessing game, 75 MPx S008 to be introduced this year, another mirrorless 50 MPx ‘MF’ body to be announced this year, a 40 MPx FF body, possibly a Q2, to be announced at Photokina. If the 50 MPx ‘MF’ version is an L-mount body, they could still introduce an SL2 with the 40 MPx ‘Q2’ sensor next year. The mirrorless sensors to be TowerJazz BSI sensors which means at least 40 MPx.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[thighslapper]

Since we‘re all playing the guessing game, 75 MPx S008 to be introduced this year, another mirrorless 50 MPx ‘MF’ body to be announced this year, a 40 MPx FF body, possibly a Q2, to be announced at Photokina. If the 50 MPx ‘MF’ version is an L-mount body, they could still introduce an SL2 with the 40 MPx ‘Q2’ sensor next year. The mirrorless sensors to be TowerJazz BSI sensors which means at least 40 MPx.

 

I'm still rather puzzled as to how you are going to get a 'MF' sized sensor in a camera with an L mount. 

 

And furthermore you already have 45mpx, 14.8 stops DR and fast AF in a 35mm format sensor in the Nikon D850, so the equivalent technology is available. Why would they bother ?