LD_50 Posted June 10, 2017 Share #1781 Posted June 10, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Congratulations! I am sure you will have fun with it and your back will probably like it too! Not only the S requires lightweight lenses IMHO, also the SL does... Leica already made that mistake once with the S. Why make it again with the SL? Hasselblad made the right call here IMO. Changing focus via touch screen is a mistake though. I already don't like it on the Leica T and this sounds worse... I don't think size of the S system is holding it back. Its comparable to 35mm systems. It's the price. Same as the SL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 Hi LD_50, Take a look here Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 10, 2017 Share #1782 Posted June 10, 2017 Congratulations! I am sure you will have fun with it and your back will probably like it too! Not only the S requires lightweight lenses IMHO, also the SL does... Leica already made that mistake once with the S. Why make it again with the SL? Hasselblad made the right call here IMO. Changing focus via touch screen is a mistake though. I already don't like it on the Leica T and this sounds worse... I like changing focus by the touch screen. But that's me. You can use the dials if you prefer on the 'blad. I'd just rather the SL and T implementation, personally. Lighter/smaller lenses are always welcome. But I have no issue with the SL lenses, considering their optical qualities. Including the WATE, 16-280mm is 4.4kg. That's fine. And those lenses could push a much higher MP body. And the S lenses are just that good. What the S needs is a body that keeps up. 50+ MP mirrorless. THEN make the second tier lenses. It's weird that they get this with the M but not the S. The SL is still so new and the new primes (coming) do seem to be more compact. While the X1D system fleshes out I'll probably travel with it and the SL. I do have options (XPro2 or A7R2) but I find it difficult to give up the SL lenses just to shave some weight. Gordon p.s. Quick and dirty infinity tests look great even wide open. Very sharp. I will say the lenses are more "aggressive" than I'm used to with miniMF lenses. Early impressions are a sharpness above rendering kind of thing. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted June 10, 2017 Share #1783 Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) I like changing focus by the touch screen. But that's me. You can use the dials if you prefer on the 'blad. I'd just rather the SL and T implementation, personally. Lighter/smaller lenses are always welcome. But I have no issue with the SL lenses, considering their optical qualities. Including the WATE, 16-280mm is 4.4kg. That's fine. And those lenses could push a much higher MP body. And the S lenses are just that good. What the S needs is a body that keeps up. 50+ MP mirrorless. THEN make the second tier lenses. It's weird that they get this with the M but not the S. The SL is still so new and the new primes (coming) do seem to be more compact. While the X1D system fleshes out I'll probably travel with it and the SL. I do have options (XPro2 or A7R2) but I find it difficult to give up the SL lenses just to shave some weight. Gordon p.s. Quick and dirty infinity tests look great even wide open. Very sharp. I will say the lenses are more "aggressive" than I'm used to with miniMF lenses. Early impressions are a sharpness above rendering kind of thing. The SL has the joystick for changing AF, that is perfect, the T(L) you need to take your eyes off the viewfinder to change AF, way too slow when shooting people IMO... In any case, with regards to the TL, both the silver and titanium TL are now listed as no longer available, sounds like we will have a new TL pretty soon... As far as the lens strategy goes I politely disagree. Sony, Fuji, and now also Hasselblad all came out with smaller and more convenenient lenses first, the better strategy IMHO... The S and the TL also taught us that the 2nd tier lenses never came... It is not so weird that the M is different, its user base is gigantic compared to other Leica systems. Edited June 10, 2017 by JorisV 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted June 10, 2017 Share #1784 Posted June 10, 2017 The SL has the joystick for changing AF, that is perfect, the T(L) you need to take your eyes off the viewfinder to change AF, way too slow when shooting people IMO... In any case, with regards to the TL, both the silver and titanium TL are now listed as no longer available, sounds like we will have a new TL pretty soon... As far as the lens strategy goes I politely disagree. Sony, Fuji, and now also Hasselblad all came out with smaller and more convenenient lenses first, the better strategy IMHO... The S and the TL also taught us that the 2nd tier lenses never came... It is not so weird that the M is different, its user base is gigantic compared to other Leica systems. I'm not a fan of the TL camera but in terms of lenses I don't see the issue with what Leica offers for this system. You have in FF equivalent: - zoom coverage from 17-200mm - a 35mm prime, 50mm prime, and 90 mm macro Combine this with M/R lens support and you have a pretty decent system available. The strategy with the SL for me matches what the camera was designed to be. It's supposed to be a high speed "pro" camera system, so Leica started with the pro zooms that match up pretty well with what Nikon and Canon offer. I do think the Summicrons should come before the Summiluxes but overall the roadmap has been fine for me. M and R lens support works just fine (though I would prefer the R adapter facilitate aperture control for easier wide open focusing). Hasselblad's camera is not competing in the same area as the SL. It's really more of a competitor for the M cameras, with the addition of autofocus. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted June 15, 2017 Share #1785 Posted June 15, 2017 it is not about SL vs x1d but SL vs S which I own both. While the S medium format IQ shines the SL specially with the 50/1.4 is also so good in regards of IQ that I often use the SL because it focuses so accurate and I can move the focus point around. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted June 15, 2017 Share #1786 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) The SL has the joystick for changing AF, that is perfect, the T(L) you need to take your eyes off the viewfinder to change AF, way too slow when shooting people IMO... In any case, with regards to the TL, both the silver and titanium TL are now listed as no longer available, sounds like we will have a new TL pretty soon... As far as the lens strategy goes I politely disagree. Sony, Fuji, and now also Hasselblad all came out with smaller and more convenenient lenses first, the better strategy IMHO... The S and the TL also taught us that the 2nd tier lenses never came... It is not so weird that the M is different, its user base is gigantic compared to other Leica systems. I agree that there are many more owners of M cameras than other Leica systems, but I am not so sure that there are many more users. Many bodies are only there for display - or only used for the occasional (holiday) trip once or twice a year. And I have the impression that more M lenses are used on non-M cameras (mainly adapted to Sony or others, some even with AF adapter - faster than X1D ?) Typically I see more Sony plus M lens than full-M. (On weddings or other social events). So I cannot see what a big or small "base" would prove in the end. And I cannot see that the X1D lenses are small - typically the Fuji lenses are smaller The macro lens is not small at all. And this is the very first of a "long" focal length. Of course the lenses are light, simply because there is not much glass in them (no wide apertures). This is simply logic. But in my eyes these lenses have a big problem - we all expect sensors with global shutter (fully electronic shutter). Then these lenses are a complete waste. Maybe you think this is only in many years, but miniMF is meant to last 10 or 20 years (to pay for the investment) so this planning is important. So for me the "strategy" of the SL lenses is much better - though the price is terrible, of course. They are certainly prepared for the next few camera generations (next 10 - 20 years), though they will probably not be working as long as the oldest M or screwmount lenses. Edited June 15, 2017 by steppenw0lf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 15, 2017 Share #1787 Posted June 15, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) We're not at the era of the global shutter yet. All current camera electronic shutters are line read electronic shutters. A true global shutter will eliminate banding and rolling shutter as all the information will be read from the shutter at once. The 120mm X1D lens will be about the same size as the fuji alternative. Both are bigger than the Pentax version. The 45mm 'blad is a bit longer but thinner than the Fuji 63mm so I think they're a wash. Hasselblad have confirmed a 22mm and 35-70 which appeal to me. The Fuji with the zoom is lighter but not much less bulky than my Pentax 645Z with it's 45-85 zoom. The X1D body is half the depth and that makes an enormous difference. The X1D and three lenses fit in a Hadley pro with room to spare. X1D focus is about the same or a bit faster than the S007 but focuses anywhere on the screen. the Fuji is faster but the X1D is more than adequate for my needs. If the start up time improved, image review in the viewfinder added and direct access to the touch focus becomes available and I'll be very happy. I did some studio tests this week and the X1D works looks really promising in studio. The focus seemed to bite well. I was expecting some hunting. I agree that the X1D is more an alternative to an M than a SL, although there are still significant differences apart from sensor and AF. The much faster lenses and short start up make the M a more "reactive" camera. And the M is unique in usability as well. Where they're similar is that you can take out the camera with one lens for a day and it won't get in the way and is great fun to shoot. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashkanani1985 Posted June 16, 2017 Share #1788 Posted June 16, 2017 To compare leica with anything else in the market is completely wrong .... I was a DSLR user for more than 10 years and my last DSLR was Canon 1DX mark ii and ditched all of my DSLR equipment to switch to leica and soon will be buying SL and already bought Q What I mean when I say you can not compare Leica to anything in the market is that Leica offer colour and contrast in pictures that I could not find in any other brand and the reason very simple coz most of theam use Sony Sensor including Hasselblad and Sony sensor is the worst when it comes to colour and contrast! Yes it the best in DR but colors are awaful Canon do come secand to Leica in term of color and contrast and like the sensor in Canon cameras and they are different coz they are made by Canon, but the magic happen in Leica colour science, there i s something special and sometimes it makes you wonder what to do in term of post processisng because the out of camera pictures are just amazing.... If you are intersted in this Leica special colour and contrast and lenses performance than you shouldn't look any where else Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfleet Posted June 16, 2017 Share #1789 Posted June 16, 2017 There appears to be an answer for those so offended by the bokeh "problem" of the XCD 90mm. It has been posted @ LuLa by a HB rep - http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=118542.0 reply #9. "This is because the aperture is stopped down a few pulses to get to an exact f/3.2. This will be addressed in an upcoming firmware (updatable by the photographer) that will make sure the aperture is round at full aperture. Once FW addressing this is available, I'll personally post like here. Sincerely, Eric P." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted June 16, 2017 Share #1790 Posted June 16, 2017 There appears to be an answer for those so offended by the bokeh "problem" of the XCD 90mm. It has been posted @ LuLa by a HB rep - http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=118542.0 reply #9. "This is because the aperture is stopped down a few pulses to get to an exact f/3.2. This will be addressed in an upcoming firmware (updatable by the photographer) that will make sure the aperture is round at full aperture. Once FW addressing this is available, I'll personally post like here. Sincerely, Eric P." I read this there as well. What an odd fix.. If the issue is truly the aperture is not round at f3.2, why would Hasselblad not either: a) redesign the lens to have round blades at max aperture and upgrade those that have been sold, or change the max listed aperture to something smaller than f3.2. Simply reducing the effective maximum aperture to where the aperture is perfectly round leaves you with a lens that is labeled f3.2 but is not quite there. There is no way this would get past them in testing so it had to be a deliberate choice. Perhaps they did not expect the OOF highlights to bother users. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted June 18, 2017 Share #1791 Posted June 18, 2017 In a week this thread exists since a year. Hardly any other thread has survived in such "lively" shape for so many months. A lot of hatred and love have flown into it. Still I think a thread gives a picture of reality - for me it is that technically Hasselblad made many errors, but that this has rather increased the love of users/fans than diminished it. I can understand it - for me it is probably similar with the SL product. I would love it even if it had more flaws than the X1D. But sorry I have to add it - fortunately this is not the case. Going back through the last few "problems" I see again and again that Hasselblad is using a typical strategy of ignoring problems, late informing about the problems (after finally acknowledging them after a delay) and finally offering a cheap solution (firmware upgrade in this case) without a clear date and a clear problem description. I know that many enthusiasts will not see it that way. But for me this is the reality. (First not acknowledging the problem, then finally treating it as a daily problem that "of course" they fix in a timely (?) and a elegant (?) manner (as they see it) - this is what repells me from Hasselblad - I wonder are they bankers ? I heard similar (elegant?) explanations from this professional group. Or from other slick (is this the word ?) manager groups that without scruples ruined thousands. ) Let's not fight again what is reality - but just accept that it is possible to see it in this way (without malvolence), just as I accept that some do not want to see it that way. So for me it is ok if you are happy with the X1D. Enjoy it (really, truly, honestly). I simply cannot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveBK Posted June 18, 2017 Share #1792 Posted June 18, 2017 I think the X1D/GFX are a great start into MF mirrorless. I'm tempted more by the GFX than the X1D, to be honest. That said - it looks like the sensor they are using is ~2013 tech. On resolution, DR, noise floor.. 2013 MF lines up well with 2016/2017 FF (like A7rII / etc). They are not a slam dunk however as they are ~3-4 years behind, which negates some of the size advantage. Unfortunately some other characteristics are not up to par with FF or M4/3. Lower readout speed results in the low burst rates, lack of 4K video, and poor EVF resolution / refresh rate / blackout. Lack of PDAF on sensor plus the low readout speed would also lead to the lower AF speed. I think they are both neat systems, and I'm likely to rent a GFX to compare better in-hand.. but we have to be realistic about what we are buying into. I do have to say these weight comparisons do leave me scratching my head though. SL+AF 50/1.4 = 1850g SL+M adapt+50/1.4 = 1363g (est) GFX+63/2.8 = 1230g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted June 18, 2017 Share #1793 Posted June 18, 2017 The X1D is Hasselblad's M8. It will get better. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted June 18, 2017 Share #1794 Posted June 18, 2017 I do have to say these weight comparisons do leave me scratching my head though. SL+AF 50/1.4 = 1850g SL+M adapt+50/1.4 = 1363g (est) GFX+63/2.8 = 1230g What leaves you scratching your head? The SL weighs a bit more than the X1D without lens. You included a large IQ focused f1.4 lens for which the X1D has no equivalent. A close equivalent to the X1D and the 63 f2.8 would be the SL and the 50 f2. Obviously there is no equivalent SL 50mm with AF at this point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted June 18, 2017 Share #1795 Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) If you compare "normal" lenses then I have the EF 1.8/50 STM. I know many probably regard it as inferior, but it is not bad. The "factor" is 0.8 (0.79): 63 is then turned into 50.4 mm, and f 2.8 is equivalent to f 2.24 The weight is SL + Novoflex + EF 1.8/50 STM = about 1.15 kg (sorry I need to check later, cannot find the details.) https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/272912-sl-5014-grottenschlecht-langsamer-af/?do=findComment&comment=3284890 The SL 50 is a special lens (like the Otus) and cannot be compared to ordinary lenses. So the weight is a handicap, but only a marginal one. (not mandatory to use it) Details: 847 + 146 + 160 = 1153g just an average size and weight. (Compare to a DSLR.) Edited June 18, 2017 by steppenw0lf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 18, 2017 Share #1796 Posted June 18, 2017 I think the X1D/GFX are a great start into MF mirrorless. I'm tempted more by the GFX than the X1D, to be honest. That said - it looks like the sensor they are using is ~2013 tech. On resolution, DR, noise floor.. 2013 MF lines up well with 2016/2017 FF (like A7rII / etc). They are not a slam dunk however as they are ~3-4 years behind, which negates some of the size advantage. Unfortunately some other characteristics are not up to par with FF or M4/3. Lower readout speed results in the low burst rates, lack of 4K video, and poor EVF resolution / refresh rate / blackout. Lack of PDAF on sensor plus the low readout speed would also lead to the lower AF speed. I think they are both neat systems, and I'm likely to rent a GFX to compare better in-hand.. but we have to be realistic about what we are buying into. I do have to say these weight comparisons do leave me scratching my head though. SL+AF 50/1.4 = 1850g SL+M adapt+50/1.4 = 1363g (est) GFX+63/2.8 = 1230g I can compare directly to my A7R2..... DR is somewhat similar but the MF files are more pliable. They can be pushed harder. Especially in the lower and mid tones. Colour transitions are better. This applies to my X1D, S007 and 645Z systems. Side by side the difference is more obvious than the numbers would say. I do not own a D810 though. EVF resolution is the same as the A7R2. I don't see the issue. The SL stands alone on EVF quality, currently. The EVF blackout is a result of resetting the leaf shutters. Reminds me of the M8/9 without the grind and whir.... I have tried the GFX. Great camera. Faster AF and all round performance than the X1D. Probably a better choice for most. But there is a noticeable difference in size and handling plus the leaf shutter lenses. I chose the X1D because of it's size, weight and the LS lenses (because I can get an entire system for the cost of two Leica S CS lenses). For me this is a landscape and studio camera. SO that makes sense. The GFX is far more of an all rounder. But with it's size not really different to the S007 or P645Z I already have (except it's mirrorless.). I think you'll like the GFX. I think most people will like the GFX. It's not pretty but it sure works well. It's designed by a real smart cookie that one. When I played with it there were more than a few things that were just really well executed. The lenses are good. All in all I think it's the better overall system *if* you don't want the LS lenses and small size/weight advantage the X1D allows. As good as the IQ from the A7R2 is. You won't pick it up once you see the files from these babies..... Gordon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EoinC Posted June 18, 2017 Share #1797 Posted June 18, 2017 To compare leica with anything else in the market is completely wrong .... I disagree. My current stable consists of Leicas, Canons (including 1DX), Hasselblads, and one solitary Sony (A7R). Each of those cameras is excellent at what it does best, and they are all different. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted June 19, 2017 Share #1798 Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) That is maybe the differnce between a pro and the rest. For the rest a wide selction of lenses really is important for the results - different angles, and also long lenses to see some far away detail. Having only a single prime lens for a whole day is frustrating for me. While pros are more concerned about the quality of the "negative" (the raw). And they are probably more focused on the results on paper. And they spend a lot of time getting the best out of it. For the rest this is often just too cumbersome - some avoid it totally. This is probably also part of the education of a pro. (to optimize the raw data). Since I got the D800 (5 years ago) I am not concerned about raw quality anymore - it is simply more/better than I ever need. I prefer a spontaneous style to a very elaborate style. And I know raw quality will continue being improved. ("automatically every 3 years"). So I will not compromise on the lenses to gain nothing of valua for me. Edited June 19, 2017 by steppenw0lf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satijntje Posted June 19, 2017 Share #1799 Posted June 19, 2017 I was a DSLR user for more than 10 years and my last DSLR was Canon 1DX mark ii and de I didn't know that the Canon 1DX mark ii was already 10 years on the market :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted June 19, 2017 Share #1800 Posted June 19, 2017 I didn't know that the Canon 1DX mark ii was already 10 years on the market :-) It makes sense when I read it.... Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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