The Leica M-D thread - merged.

[ECohen]

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Today (April 15, 2016) Leica made an announcement about the Leica T which gives a strong signal where the Leica M is headed.

The Leica Model T now transfers images from the camera wirelessly to a cellphone, tablet, or computer.

It seems likely that future Leica M's will acquire this capability.

This means that the Leica M will no longer need an LCD screen - as is rumoured for the Leica M-D.

Instead, it will use the (much better) LCD screen of a smartphone,

The camera will become smaller, lighter, and simpler.

The connection is two-way, so that the cellphone can change menu settings on the Leica.

Way to go, Leica!!

 

 

 

How does wireless transfer mean that the Leica M will no longer need an LCD screen?

Maybe in the studio but most use this camera in the field.....I don't think the M target user cares about wireless.

And I defiantly don't want to adjust my M from my cell phone....Maybe its age but my cell phone isn't that important too me?

 

Rather than have my M do all this stuff ruining the simple M experience .....I'll get a T

 

Anybody know, who exactly is the M user? Why do they buy an M over other more tech connected cameras?....and there are a so many of them.

Heck the M crowd loves rangefinder focus .....wireless and more menu options ...I don't think so?

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[Hey You]

The goal is probably to make using the M as simple and basic as possible.

The only controls that the M camera body needs will be those that film M's had - shutter speed, aperture, focus and ISO setting.

The ability to communicate with a cell phone or tablet is to view and change rarely used menu settings, such as lens identification and flash synchronization.

In other words, you use a cell phone or tablet to "configure" the M when you acquire it, and then you leave them behind when you go out shooting images.

If you absolutely must "chimp," then you can do it (awkwardly) with the cell phone.

 

So, rather than this stuff ruining the simple M experience, it actually enhances the M experience by reverting to essentials.

It's not adding bells and whistles, it's eliminating them.

[ECohen]

You may be right but I don't even go to restaurants that puts their menu on an iPad.

 

Sometimes depending on what I'm shooting I do chimp, it's like a Polaroid.....removing the  LCD  and adding new  technology  off camera would change the M experience ....make it more complicated and now the need for a tripod 

I would hope that Leica knows its user enough to have it a completely new model*,keeping the simple rangefinder and minimalist features that made me buy the Leica M in the first place.

 

If I wanted all those features and technology there are better, cheaper, lighter, cameras on the market....that I would choose.

Also if I were choosing that kind of camera I would go for auto focus as well...even less reason to buy an M

 

 

This is just my opinion I'm sure many have yours......and I do see how your features are very useful....but they turn me off.

I'll bet your young?    Please know I don't mean young as an insult.....but to me your describing a camera for another generation.

 

It would surprise me if Leica would be designing a replacement to the  M for the next generation.....too many old M users....with money to burn on lenses.

Think about it we M user loves the randgfinder and simple camera like controls. 

 

 

*Do forgive me I think I jumped into a thread thats about a new model the MD not a replacement for the M240.

I only read the last few posts.

Edited April 16, 2016 by ECohen

[Hey You]

I'm 72, and I bought my first Leica over 40 years ago.

 

This latest Leica (if it is as I expect) will the the one that returns me to the minimalist M experience I had way back then.

[IkarusJohn]

It's an interesting thought. If My M60 could be controlled using an SL-type App from my phone, would I use it?

 

First, I haven't found anything I need to configure on the M that would need such an App. The white balance is fine, you don't get jpegs etc. But then, that's not the point really. 

 

Second, such an App would mean live view, and that changes everything. At the least, it would mean the ability to check framing and remote trigger (which would be useful) - I could use a tripod. I could also use exposure compensation, but I think we're still talikng about a tripod. I could also use wider and longer lenses, but that would be fiddly (Leica branded rubberbands to hold your phone to the back of your lovely minimalist camera, hmmmm good look).

 

Third, you could chimp (I don't). You would also probably then want jpegs. 

 

Fourth, you could do movies. 

 

Fifth, focus peaking and magnification.

 

I'm sure people can think of other benefits, but if you really wanted all that, buy the next M(240) upgrade. My SL does all that - that's not what I use the M60 for. Apart from the price, my only initial concern about the M60 was the inability to use a remote shutter release. No threaded shutter release for a cable, no USB, no electronic release, no self-timer; but I haven't missed it. 

 

My M60 lives in its lovely leather half case, and it is purely for handheld, walk about photography. There's next to nothing in the viewfinder apart from a brief indication of battery life and card capacity when you turn it on, electronic frame lines and shutter speed (if you're in A mode, or the little arrows if you're not). It is the essence of simplicity, and compared to the SL, it is way faster in terms of thinking about the shot and taking it. The 35 Summilux also seems to be glued to it. This is my single lens camera. 

 

The only things I would have liked are (1) single framelines, generated from the 6 bit coding on the lens (actually, just 35mm framelines would be perfect in practice, but I guess that is just too limiting), and (2) arrows or dots in manual mode to show how far under or over exposed you are (really good on the SL). 

 

That said, if people want all that extra functionality on a smart phone, why not?  I can't imagine it is even remotely difficult for Leica to do (pardon the pun), and if you tire of fiddling with your phone, your camera still has elegant simplicity to it. If the M-D is anything like this, in my view it will be brilliant. I know the styling, price etc of the M60 caused some adverse reaction, but I love mine. In practice, it is fantastic. 

 

Cheers

John

[pico]

100% with John on this.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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Today (April 15, 2016) Leica made an announcement about the Leica T which gives a strong signal where the Leica M is headed.

The Leica Model T now transfers images from the camera wirelessly to a cellphone, tablet, or computer.

It seems likely that future Leica M's will acquire this capability.

This means that the Leica M will no longer need an LCD screen - as is rumoured for the Leica M-D.

Instead, it will use the (much better) LCD screen of a smartphone,

The camera will become smaller, lighter, and simpler.

The connection is two-way, so that the cellphone can change menu settings on the Leica.

Way to go, Leica!!

 

 

You won't get this functionality on the M. Simply because two of the three exposure variables (shutter speed and aperture) are controlled from mechanical switches. So your app can't adjust exposure except for ISO. The T and SL don't have this limitation. You'd really be stuck with image review and menu functions but that might be the best way to go.

 

It might be nice for the M-D user to have a way to chimp or share images directly from camera and because it's totally separate it wouldn't change the camera in use after all chimping on a smartphone won't be convenient when street shooting or during a session. It'll be something you might do on your iPad at a café after the day is done. Access to a basic menu via your device could be interesting. Imagine being able to set your M-D to shoot black and white jpegs, with certain sharpness, grain and tones for a day and the next day set it to shoot raw, or colour. Or even b&w raws (from the colour sensor, so not quite a monochrome but close).

 

Personally I like my LCD so I'll keep it but I do understand the lure of a really "pure" digital M stripped to the absolute basics. And I sure do wish the next normal M has a direct access to an ISO dial like the type 60 does.

 

Gordon

[DezFoto]

You won't get this functionality on the M. Simply because two of the three exposure variables (shutter speed and aperture) are controlled from mechanical switches. 

 

The shutter speed is controlled by the camera's computer in "A" mode, so I'm sure that could be controlled by an iPhone as well.

 

I don't really get the point of taking all the functionality off the camera and forcing you to rely on a cellphone to get more control over functions. Seems needlessly fussy. 

[ECohen]

What am I missing ? I cant believe you all want to do away with the LCD and have the controls of the M on an app on your Iphone

Will I duct tape the iPhone to my forearm when shooting?  What is the point of all this?

What do you gain except now you need to be sure your cell is in your pocket and charged and has all the current software ? ...one more thing to carry....one more thing to fail

Take it a step further lets get rid of the SD card too ....put all my photos on my iPhone....I dont want the iPhone infecting my M.....

Lets just have Leica  improve the iPhones camera and be done with it....no need for the M just shoot with you M-iphone....and no need for those expensive lenses either.

 

i like that the current M has no bells and whistles.Its easer to see what its set on.....and  NO MENU LAYERS like the Japanese companies...isnt that the point of the simple M?  

Are you going to put your M outside to shoot wild life from a distance? Do you all use your camera different than i use mine?...i guess some of you do?

 

How will all this make the M better? Please enlighten me...Am I taking all this too seriously?

Less is more.... especially with the beloved M

 

The only thing that I want is thinner, smaller and lighter...and I can forget getting any of this unless they repeal the laws of physics.

As much as I love the rangefinder I could see replacing this old mechanical system for something new and electronic...but again thats not happening anytime soon.

 

....Controls on my iPhone.....seriously you all want that?....need that?

Edited April 17, 2016 by ECohen

[IkarusJohn]

No.

[jack-tucker]

Sometimes I put my phone on flight mode while shooting, particular on assignments. I don't want to be disturbed while shooting. So when I want to adjust the white balance, or anything else (WB would be the most common use, I guess) I would have to put my phone back to normal mode, wait for both devices being connected... The whole idea sounds quite annoying for me.

 

I like the idea of an M-D without screen. But than it should be kept simple. An M-D (if kept simplistic) next to my M-P could be quite nice. One for work and when it really matters, one for fun (and maybe as a backup). Just not having buttons doesn't make it simpel, in my opinion. And having to control it via a second device makes it even more complicated and vulnerable to technical problems - Two devices which could have any technical problem, another charger which could be broken or just left at home and so on...

 

I am excited what will come. 

[Mike Rawcs]

Leica Rumours http://leicarumors.com reports that the M-D will be announced in early may with "Analog Leica M-A size and looks".

 

 

Here's hoping.

 

Mike.

[schultzvil]

Yes just saw this also. Indeed intriguing.

[AndreasAM]

Still my guess, as I stated 100 posts ago in this thread;

 

M-D(igital)

 

First iteration of the Opto Electronic Rangefinder(OERF)?

Leica testing the waters with the OERF (see patent, discussed earlier). 

 

Using the electronic camera technology, Leica developed in house, as implemented in the Huawei P9 cellphone, for the 2 optical cells of the electronic rangefinder. That's why it is possible to reduce the size of the M. 

 

This first one will be, like the M60, the "exclusive" one. Will replace eventually (Photokina 2018?) , or coexist, depending on the acceptance by the consumer, the opto mechanical RF to be the flagship RF. 

 

Let's see.........

 

[padam]

It has the Type 262 codename for a reason.

Apart from the manual ISO control and redesigned body it won't be that different from that camera, and there is nothing wrong with that.

It will be great for what it is, it does not need wifi or liveview, there is less to go wrong or to care about (which would be the whole point, actually).

 

The next M may have those features added or taken to a new level, but those will not make it a better camera.

Edited April 20, 2016 by padam

[menos I M6]

It has the Type 262 codename for a reason.

Apart from the manual ISO control and redesigned body it won't be that different from that camera, and there is nothing wrong with that.

It will be great for what it is, it does not need wifi or liveview, there is less to go wrong or to care about (which would be the whole point, actually).

 

The next M may have those features added or taken to a new level, but those will not make it a better camera.

 

I was (and still am) a sceptic of the M10 introduction of all the additional functions, movie, life view, additional buttons, too large display and different ways the camera operates.

I have recently changed my very much liked MM (the best camera I ever had) to a newer MM2 and all my reservations have been proven right unfortunately. I cannot come to grips with how different this new generation M operates.

 

There is one single exception to this though - as not for photographic advantages but for pure servicing and maintenance purposes, the live view function is immensely useful.

As per all newly bought digital M bodies, the MM2 also was out of alignment straight from the factory - it needed a quick alignment which was so much quicker and easier to do than on the digital bodies before it.

 

I do hope for a future M with out display, bare to the bones, resembling my film M bodies, but I do hope that it does come with the ability to enable live view (via Wi-Fi or even via re-designed EVF port, similar as in the M10 generation of cameras) of the purpose of maintaining perfect RF alignment.

 

As my MM2 came from the factory, the misalignment was just enough out of sync that it wasn't immediately recognized as a RF misalignment, but every other shot was just a touch soft that made me question the entire system until I arrived back home from the trip and was able to calibrate the RF properly in the studio.

[jaapv]

I think the display on the M10 is just about the right size: 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThwtyGcDhyk

[kkonkkrete]

If the rumour site is correct, I'm very excited about the product, but disappointed about the price.  It will be very hard to choose between the M 262 and the M-D 262.  The 6K price for the M-D takes a body + 35 Lux combo over 10K, which I think is too expensive.  

 

Disappointed.  Probably end up just getting the M 262.

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[ECohen]

If the rumour site is correct, I'm very excited about the product, but disappointed about the price.  It will be very hard to choose between the M 262 and the M-D 262.  The 6K price for the M-D takes a body + 35 Lux combo over 10K, which I think is too expensive.  

 

Disappointed.  Probably end up just getting the M 262.

 

 

"The 6K price for the M-D takes a body + 35 Lux combo over 10K, which I think is too expensive."  

What did you expect...Its a Leica      I don't think we will ever see a Leica "worth" the money.

Leica isn't concerned with making a camera that is a good value.....It not that kind of camera.

 

 

 

Also.... I don't understand, many wanting to get rid if the LCD...Why?

A preview is one of the best benefits of the digital age...turn it off it you don't want it.

What do you gain by not having it ability to preview?.....To me its nice to have a little insurance.

[mmradman]

Camera without rear LCD would appeal to some traditionalists and trendy perhaps.  Earlier limited edition M60 (M240 without rear LCD) is still available for sale and it is not only lack of strap lugs (original price doesn't help) that is keeping this camera unsold.

 

With or without LCD, we don't know yet, if it is going to be same thickness as film Ms than new M-D could be offering something radically new, good on Leica. Having said that majority of camera buying public would still expect rear LCD on modern digital camera.