jerzy Posted May 8, 2018 Share #41 Posted May 8, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) quick check on one of my Summitars - 524xxx. Round iris, 10 blades, blades are flat. Later tonight I will check my other Summitars Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 8, 2018 Posted May 8, 2018 Hi jerzy, Take a look here Summar 5cm variations. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wlaidlaw Posted May 8, 2018 Share #42 Posted May 8, 2018 Here are a couple of pictures of the internal structure of the hex diaphragm Summitar. You can see it is rather different from the Summar. Unless I was prepared to remove the diaphragm locking ring, for which I have the tool but don't particularly want to do (if it ain't broke, don't fix it), it is impossible to determine if this is the same diaphragm as the Summar. The Summitar came apart far more easily than the Summar, even though as far as I am aware, it has never come apart from new in 1953. There was a little more lubricant film on the elements either side of the diaphragm than on the Summar, which given the age of the lens and the absence of any service, is not surprising. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/257977-summar-5cm-variations/?do=findComment&comment=3514892'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted May 8, 2018 Share #43 Posted May 8, 2018 Thanks Wilson. I have only one Summitar which is a wartime model with a round iris. The Summitar is a great lens, but it has not caught my interest like the Summar and the Elmar. In my article, linked above, you can see that, when stopped down, the collapsible Summar can give hexagonal highlights. However, in another shot with the collapsible (of the orange hot house flowers) the bokeh is quite smooth and rounded. The rigid model was used for the first photo where the bokeh is rounded but busy and for the last photo (of editor Mike Evans) where the bokeh is extremely smooth. A lot can depend on what the lighting was at the time the photo was taken and how busy the background was and how far away it was relative to the main subject. There are more factors at play in determining the nature of bokeh than the number of aperture blades and their shape. I am re-assured that both Jerzy and yourself have found 12 blades in the Summar aperture mechanism. I was beginning to doubt my eyesight. The Summars can give quite a magical look as in this photo taken in Kew Gardens with the rigid Summar on an M240. Some might not like it, but I love the old fashioned 'look' in this photo. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/257977-summar-5cm-variations/?do=findComment&comment=3514931'>More sharing options...
eastwestphoto Posted May 8, 2018 Share #44 Posted May 8, 2018 According to Dennis Laney Leica book, the 1933 Summar 5cm has 12 blades, flat aperture. This makes sense to me; as early 35mm film lenses where always made with lots of aperture blades to give, circular highlights. In 1934 when the collapsible version was introduced, Leitz switched to a HEXAGON shaped diaphram. They may have used 12 blades to make the shape as it is also dome shaped, not flat. From 1934 on, all Summar 5cm lenses were HEXAGON shaped diaphragm. My only interest was to see if a circular aperture was made after 1934 in a Double -Guass optical Summar design? Apparently Not, is the answer? While I wasn't particularly interested in the Summitar 5cm , in 1939 it also had a circular diaphram, until 1951, when it was switched to the Hexagon design. Knowing that production from 1939 to at least 1945 was severely limited by WW2, finding the circular aperture Summitar is also more difficult. I am NOT a big fan of the Hexagon shaped Iris; as my chief concern is the Bokeh a lens produces. Late uncoated lenses for 35mm film cameras in the 1930's had a amazing array of aperture blades, from Zeiss Tessar 5cm/2.8 with its 15 blades making near perfect circles, to Leitz's Summar 5cm/2 making Hexagons. The choice of what style Bokeh you like in a photo, is similar to what fine wine to like to drink. Too me the Summar 5cm/2 is a unique lens offering a unique bokeh. Later leica lenses were just too overly corrected and the finished product although; perfect in all ways, lost a certain artistic, impressionistic appearance. So going back in time is my answer, using the highly adaptable DSLM Sony product line to test out all inter-changeable lenses on adapters. I have come to really love the Summar lens! Short rangefinder back focus lenses adapt so well to APS-C and full frame digital DSLM cameras. For a long time i used a Leitz Summircron 40/2 CL lens. A lens i consider to be near perfect for a small digital camera. While I never tested it on a leica digital body, I am sure it a match made in heaven. These days I use it on my Black Leica M5, my favorite Leica rangefinder. Well I am always experimenting on great lenses from legacy days on my DSLM Sony cameras. The Leitz Leica Summar 5cm/2 which i bought and sold and horse-traded has come back to my large Leica collection of cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 8, 2018 Share #45 Posted May 8, 2018 If you are looking for an LTM/M lens with splendid bokeh and a super round aperture, you need look no further than the 5cm/f1.5 Xenon (uncoated) or Summarit (the coated and very mildly updated version). I have just counted the aperture blades on mine and there are 15 curved blades. This gives a very circular aperture at all settings. One of the briefs to Horace William Lee of the Kallista Company from Taylor, Taylor and Hobson, for the original Xenon, was gentle and dreamy OOF (bokeh had not been invented back in the early 1930's ). Here is an example of the sort of output you can get from the Summarit and this is before cleaning, internal painting and service, which has reduced flare a lot and increased contrast a little. I am really looking forward to going up to the Plateau de Valensole, just north of the Lac Ste Marie in late June, to take evening shots over the lavender fields. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/257977-summar-5cm-variations/?do=findComment&comment=3515122'>More sharing options...
eastwestphoto Posted May 8, 2018 Share #46 Posted May 8, 2018 its very similar to my coated Summar 5cm, that I shoot wide open, most times! Thanks, Don 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted May 8, 2018 Share #47 Posted May 8, 2018 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I see a lot of busy people disassembling and photographing the Summar, late to the party but here is 217254 with the twelve pivot pins for the blades, partially closed. And the hexagon in action IIIc/f ORWO N74 TD201 (anchell&troop) Edited May 8, 2018 by chris_livsey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestphoto Posted May 8, 2018 Share #48 Posted May 8, 2018 I am Not a fan of the hexagon pattern ,I shoot my Summar wide open, but its a coated Summar, does not flare too much. speaking of late to the party, in 1936 the Reich, having tested all 35mm German cameras, ordered Zeiss to make Leica m39 thread mount lenses. Zeiss was less than happy about this request as Leitz was there chief competitor. It seems the Reich favored the Tessar as a better lens, over the summar 5cm/2. reasons stated were: 1. a circular aperture 2. less flare 3. sharper image Leitz was very offended and set to work designing an improved F:2 5cm lens with a flat circular aperture, the lens came out in 1939, the Summitar 5cm/2, 7 element lens and was uncoated, with ten blades. in 1945 factory coating, 10 blades flat circular. 1951 six curved Hexagon blades, 1955 end of production for the Summitar. why leitz used a dome shaped Hexagonal shape has been suggested to improve wide open vignetting? I do own a 1939 uncoated 10 blade Summitar on my Luftwaffen Egentum lllb, with the red curtains. I plan on getting a old Summar uncoated and running a test challenge between the two? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 8, 2018 Share #49 Posted May 8, 2018 (edited) My father always preferred his coated Summar for Kodachrome to the Summitar, which he felt produced cold looking slides. I have to admit to never having tried the Summitar on Kodachrome but I did try it on Provia 100 and it has distinctly cool bluish rendition, albeit part of that may be down to Provia. For black and white my father used the Opton Sonnar 5cm/f1.5 on his Contax IIa until he got fed up with its unreliability and reverted to his earlier Super Ikonta BX for B&W, which had a coated 80mm/f2.8 Tessar. This is the same lens as I use in my Graflex Crown Century and it is very sharp but has a somewhat curved field. as does the Opton Sonnar. Wilson Edited May 8, 2018 by wlaidlaw Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted May 9, 2018 Share #50 Posted May 9, 2018 The Summar isn't a perfectly optically straight rendering lens: HP5+ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 9, 2018 Share #51 Posted May 9, 2018 Chris, I was not thinking of barrel/pincushion distortion which your Summar above demonstrates but with the Zeiss Tessar and Sonnar lenses, a curved field of focus, with the edges of the field more radially disposed to the camera, rather than in a straight line. This optical problem was what the Zeiss Planar was originally designed to correct - hence the name. Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/257977-summar-5cm-variations/?do=findComment&comment=3515495'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted May 9, 2018 Share #52 Posted May 9, 2018 The Summar isn't a perfectly optically straight rendering lens: HP5+ But I love the output from the Summar and I don't spend any time looking for distortion or discussing its optical design. For real life photographs it is an excellent lens with loads of character. It is also a very interesting collector's item with a lot of variations. What more could one want? William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestphoto Posted May 9, 2018 Share #53 Posted May 9, 2018 I tried to upload an image from Flickr and this website when nutz? Why? it asks for a URL link? I tried 10 times, ten ways, no luck? Never had problems on any other website, why is this one so stubborn? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted May 9, 2018 Share #54 Posted May 9, 2018 But I love the output from the Summar and I don't spend any time looking for distortion or discussing its optical design. William It was only when pointed out to me I noticed, I don't care either 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
samiba Posted October 30, 2018 Share #55 Posted October 30, 2018 Maybe my collapsible black rim with ser. No. 167812 adds further information to your discussion. It was after market coated, probably in the 1950ies. It has 12 curved blades and the notch at 2.9. Delivers sharp and contrasty pics with a very swirley bokeh. Cheers, Michael Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/257977-summar-5cm-variations/?do=findComment&comment=3622619'>More sharing options...
eastwestphoto Posted October 30, 2018 Share #56 Posted October 30, 2018 No doubt about it, it was coated many years later! I consider your lens to be the rarest of all Summar's. 12 blades with a nice coating; OMG, how wonderful! My personal copy is a Six blade No. 448582 coated also. That said there is a BIG difference between the Bokeh characteristics of the six blade Vs. the twelve blade. It is impossible to find a coated twelve blade Summar on planet Earth! Do you have a coated Six blade version? If so, can you do a swirly Bokeh comparison test? if the day ever comes that you wish to sell this lens, contact me. Regards, Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 30, 2018 Share #57 Posted October 30, 2018 vor 2 Stunden schrieb samiba: Maybe my collapsible black rim with ser. No. 167812 adds further information to your discussion. It was after market coated, probably in the 1950ies. It has 12 curved blades and the notch at 2.9. Delivers sharp and contrasty pics with a very swirley bokeh. Cheers, Michael Michael, very interesting lens! It is the lowest SN which I found with collapsible mount. First rigid Summar was 167000, your lens belongs to the first assigned lot, first half of 1933. 2.9 mark appeared in 1934 only. I assume that your lens was converted from rigid to collapsible (what a pitty :-)). If this was at the same time as coating - rather not. As you correctly noted coating is postwar and I would assume that if the mount would be changed at the same time than it would rather be chrome and not black rim. Reason for modifying the mount - smaller size when collapsed and non-rotating optics, absulutely neccesary for Agfa filter but as well more convenient in general Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted October 30, 2018 Share #58 Posted October 30, 2018 If this has curved blades it may be an 'upgraded' Rigid Summar and both the SN and the nickel with black collar style point that way. My Rigid Summar has curved blades and there seems to be about 12 of them. Three of my 12 Summars have coating, but I really like the look from uncoated Summars. Shot wide open, or almost wide open, the hexagonal aperture Summars give nice swirly bokeh. Stopped down you may get hexagonal highlights, which may or may not be to your taste. A good condition Summar is, indeed, a magical lens. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted October 30, 2018 Share #59 Posted October 30, 2018 vor 1 Stunde schrieb eastwestphoto: It is impossible to find a coated twelve blade Summar on planet Earth! Do you have a coated Six blade version? If so, can you do a swirly Bokeh comparison test? if the day ever comes that you wish to sell this lens, contact me. Regards, Don Don, all Sumars have 12 blades, curved,. Maybe your mixing it up with Summitars, there are 2 verions of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
samiba Posted October 30, 2018 Share #60 Posted October 30, 2018 vor 2 Stunden schrieb eastwestphoto: No doubt about it, it was coated many years later! I consider your lens to be the rarest of all Summar's. 12 blades with a nice coating; OMG, how wonderful! My personal copy is a Six blade No. 448582 coated also. That said there is a BIG difference between the Bokeh characteristics of the six blade Vs. the twelve blade. It is impossible to find a coated twelve blade Summar on planet Earth! Do you have a coated Six blade version? If so, can you do a swirly Bokeh comparison test? if the day ever comes that you wish to sell this lens, contact me. Regards, Don Sorry Don, but it is my only Summar. So I won`t be able to shoot a comparison test. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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