Summar 5cm variations

[samiba]

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb samiba:

 

What I can show you is the swirley bokeh which I like very much. (Summar on Olympus digital)

 

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[wlaidlaw]

The nickel collapsible Summar (on my nickel Reporter 250FF) is also 1933 with serial number 186104. I had not checked how many blades the diaphragm is and whether flat or bowed but just looked and it is 12 blades and bowed, with hex aperture, just like my 1953 Summitar. 

Wilson

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[willeica]

Jerzy, our postings have been crossing.  SN 167812 was definitely originally a rigid model from the first batch. I have SN 186431 which is also rigid and is from the second batch. It does not have an f2.9 mark. One of the 'advantages' which caused owners to 'upgrade' to the collapsible may have been the f2.9 mark for use with the short-lived Agfa filters. I have SN 193632 from the fourth batch from 1922 and this is nickel with black rim collar and it has the f2.9 mark. I am not sure about the third batch from 190061 to 191000 listed by Thiele and I do not know if this was rigid or collapsible or whether it had the f2.9 mark.

William

[willeica]

I should have said that SN 193632, mentioned above, is collapsible. Here is an example of swirly bokeh from a later uncoated Summar with hexagonal aperture.

William

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[willeica]

For comparison purposes, here is an example of the bokeh from my Rigid Summar with curved blades and round aperture.

William

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Edited October 30, 2018 by willeica

[jerzy]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb willeica:

. I have SN 193632 from the fourth batch from 1922 and this is nickel with black rim collar and it has the f2.9 mark. I am not sure about the third batch from 190061 to 191000 listed by Thiele and I do not know if this was rigid or collapsible or whether it had the f2.9 mark.

William

William, except the single lenses with lower SN (like the lens from Michael) I could find 2.9 mark on 193361 as the lowest SN where 2.9 appears regularly.

Btw. the IR mark on distance scale starts to appear regularly on lenses above 1944xx. 

Back to the lens from Michael - this is as well the lowest SN with black rim which I could observe. There were as well some rigid Summars with black rim, may be found with SNs around 1678xx-1679xx and then 186xxx and 190xxx

[wlaidlaw]

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My 186104 collapsible nickel Summar has the 2.9 Agfa aperture mark. 

[eastwestphoto]

15 hours ago, jerzy said:

Don,

all Sumars have 12 blades, curved,. Maybe your mixing it up with Summitars, there are 2 verions of it. 

Not true!  We are discussing whether the diaphragm makes a six sided hexagon or 12 blade circular diaphragm. Only the very early 5cm Summar does that!  It makes a BIG difference in the Bokeh of both Coated versions. Regards, Don

[wlaidlaw]

21 minutes ago, eastwestphoto said:

Not true!  We are discussing whether the diaphragm makes a six sided hexagon or 12 blade circular diaphragm. Only the very early 5cm Summar does that!  It makes a BIG difference in the Bokeh of both Coated versions. Regards, Don

Don,

Collapsible Summars don't come a lot earlier than mine, mentioned above but that has the regular 12 blade hex aperture diaphragm. It makes you wonder if the circular aperture diaphragm was to special order. Leica offered all sorts of customisation options at that period. 

Wilson

[UliWer]

Error, deleted.

Edited October 31, 2018 by UliWer

[willeica]

1 hour ago, eastwestphoto said:

Not true!  We are discussing whether the diaphragm makes a six sided hexagon or 12 blade circular diaphragm. Only the very early 5cm Summar does that!  It makes a BIG difference in the Bokeh of both Coated versions. Regards, Don

Don, Jerzy is one of the best informed people in the world on early Leica lenses. I know this as we regularly exchange information and have done a few exercises together. When it comes to lenses he is right up there with Lager and Netopil, both of whom I know and would acknowledge Jerzy's expertise in this field. If he has not seen a 6 blade Summar, then I would take his word for it. All of mine have 12 blades.

As for bokeh, it is a matter for personal taste. Also bokeh can vary according to various factors including the nature of the lighting and distance from the subject etc. In my two comparison photos above I think that the bokeh in the example taken with a Summar with a hexagonal aperture is just as nice (possibly better) as that in the example taken with the Rigid Summar with round aperture. While we are discussing aperture, has anyone seen a rigid Summar with a minimum f stop of 18 as reported by van Hasbroeck? All of my Summars only stop down to f12.5.

There are some coated Summars, but there is no official coated version. All of my 3 coated Summars look like they were coated in the 'after market' and the coating is different in each case. Coating did not become a feature of Leica lenses until after production of the Summar had ceased, but van Hasbroeck says that it is probable that some surplus stock was coated after World War II.

3 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

My 186104 collapsible nickel Summar has the 2.9 Agfa aperture mark. 

This is from the second batch and is earlier than my Rigid Summar with SN 186431, which makes it possible that your Summar is an 'upgraded' rigid model. Also given Jerzy's estimate of the earliest SN with the f2.9 mark, it seems likely that this was added in the 'upgrade'. Is your Summar SN 186104 nickel with a black front ring?

William

Edited October 31, 2018 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

2 minutes ago, willeica said:

Don, Jerzy is one of the best informed people in the world on early Leica lenses. I know this as we regularly exchange information and have done a few exercises together. When it comes to lenses he is right up there with Lager and Netopil, both of whom I know and would acknowledge Jerzy's expertise in this field. If he has not seen a 6 blade Summar, then I would take his word for it. All of mine have 12 blades.

As for bokeh, it is a matter for personal taste. Also bokeh can vary according to various factors including the nature of the lighting and distance from the subject etc. In my two comparison photos above I think that the bokeh in the example taken with a Summar with a hexagonal aperture is just as nice (possibly better) as that in the example taken with the Rigid Summar with round aperture. While we are discussing aperture, has anyone seen a rigid Summar with a minimum f stop of 18 as reported by van Hasbroeck? All of my Summars only stop down to f12.5.

There are some coated Summars, but there is no official coated version. All of my 3 coated Summars look like they were coated in the 'after market' and the coating is different in each case. Coating did not become a feature of Leica lenses until after production of the Summar had ceased, but van Hasbroeck says that it is probable that some surplus stock was coated after World War II.

This is from the second batch and is earlier than my Rigid Summar with SN 186431, which makes it possible that your Summar is an 'upgraded' rigid model. Also given Jerzy's estimate of the earliest SN with the f2.9 mark, it seems likely that this added in the 'upgrade'. Is your Summar SN 186104 nickel with a black front ring?

William

William, 

My Summar is nickel with a nickel front ring. I don't know if there are any "tells" for an upgraded lens. It certainly looks like it was made as a collapsible. 

Wilson

 

[willeica]

51 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

William, 

My Summar is nickel with a nickel front ring. I don't know if there are any "tells" for an upgraded lens. It certainly looks like it was made as a collapsible. 

Wilson

 

Thanks Wilson. There may, indeed, have been some overlap in production as my Rigid Summar has a later SN. Any information on this would be welcomed. This is yet another example of where an upgrade, which probably brought useful improvements at the time, led to a decrease in value with collectors 80 or 90 years into the future. With collectors, rarity and original condition are the two ultimate factors when it comes to determining value.

William

Edited October 31, 2018 by willeica

[eastwestphoto]

22 hours ago, jerzy said:

Don,

all Sumars have 12 blades, curved,. Maybe your mixing it up with Summitars, there are 2 verions of it. 

What? No way, Summar 5cm lens made in 1933,  came as Rigid lens. Inside with 12 curved ( Circular) aperture blades, starting at # 167800. After 1934 they are collapsible;   all have hexagonal shape apertures not circular( My discussion with Simba was about the shape  the aperture made, NOT how many blades were used to make the shape) . This you know! Some were marked at 2.9 line for Agfa color process. I used J. larger book, illustrated guide Volume ll pg. 30 1978 printing,  for this info. While 1978 was definitely pre- internet, the possibility that the info I stated may be incomplete  by newer finds and variations in build type due to more knowledge becoming available. This concept  I have seen;  over and over again, in the 1984 Sugiyama " Guide to Japanese Cameras.  As a result those that write articles like myself HELP book editor's to update the Collectible Camera Guide books with new information. The M. Simba lens may be modified rigid after all? To me it has the best of all worlds. Coated with a 12 circular blade aperture! To a User,  it is a Marvel lens and very RARE! To a collector,  its Not original in design? I use my Coated Summar # 448582 for its Double-Guass design and its swirly Bokeh and wish it had 12 circular blades. To me Circular blades make superior Bokeh. All the latest modern digital AF  prime lens makers are increasing the aperture blades back to 10 and 12 again in circular patterns. There, s a reason for a return to multi bladed circular apertures.I started contacting on this thread looking for such a Summar Coated with 12 circular aperture blades. Regards, Don

[eastwestphoto]

6 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

William, 

My Summar is nickel with a nickel front ring. I don't know if there are any "tells" for an upgraded lens. It certainly looks like it was made as a collapsible. 

Wilson

 

My response to JERZY,

                                     What? No way, Summar 5cm lens made in 1933,  came as Rigid lens. Inside with 12 curved ( Circular) aperture blades, starting at # 167800. After 1934 they are collapsible;   all have hexagonal shape apertures not circular( My discussion with Simba was about the shape  the aperture made, NOT how many blades were used to make the shape) . This you know! Some were marked at 2.9 line for Agfa color process. I used J. larger book, illustrated guide Volume ll pg. 30 1978 printing,  for this info. While 1978 was definitely pre- internet, the possibility that the info I stated may be incomplete  by newer finds and variations in build type due to more knowledge becoming available. This concept  I have seen;  over and over again, in the 1984 Sugiyama " Guide to Japanese Cameras.  As a result those that write articles like myself HELP book editor's to update the Collectible Camera Guide books with new information. The M. Simba lens may be modified rigid after all? To me it has the best of all worlds. Coated with a 12 circular blade aperture! To a User,  it is a Marvel lens and very RARE! To a collector,  its Not original in design? I use my Coated Summar # 448582 for its Double-Guass design and its swirly Bokeh and wish it had 12 circular blades. To me Circular blades make superior Bokeh. All the latest modern digital AF  prime lens makers are increasing the aperture blades back to 10 and 12 again in circular patterns. There, s a reason for a return to multi bladed circular apertures.I started contacting on this thread looking for such a Summar Coated with 12 circular aperture blades. Regards, Don

** I realize that all coated Summars were done as a service by E. Leitz N.Y. in the 1950's. ** 

[eastwestphoto]

22 hours ago, samiba said:

What I can show you is the swirley bokeh which I like very much. (Summar on Olympus digital)

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

me too,,,,,, 

[eastwestphoto]

22 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

The nickel collapsible Summar (on my nickel Reporter 250FF) is also 1933 with serial number 186104. I had not checked how many blades the diaphragm is and whether flat or bowed but just looked and it is 12 blades and bowed, with hex aperture, just like my 1953 Summitar. 

Wilson

Wilson, 

             Simba and I were talking about Bokeh produced by Circular aperture ( 12 blades) as opposed to HEX aperture ( 12 blades) in  coated Summar 5cm lens. Both he and I understand the conversation is about coated Summar with 12 CIRCULAR blades which is a very RARE variation. Both he and I own Coated Summar lenses. Regards, Don

[eastwestphoto]

7 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Don,

Collapsible Summars don't come a lot earlier than mine, mentioned above but that has the regular 12 blade hex aperture diaphragm. It makes you wonder if the circular aperture diaphragm was to special order. Leica offered all sorts of customisation options at that period. 

Wilson

M. Simba lens is a modified early version Rigid, his serial # 167812 proves that.  Its coated, its collapsible, it has 12 CIRCULAR aperture blades. Its Very RARE and unknown variation! Regards, Don

[wlaidlaw]

All Summars being coated by E Leitz NY is not quite the whole story. Oude Delft in the Netherlands also offered a coating service for Leica lenses during the 1940's. My father's Summar was coated in the Netherlands in 1948, so I would assume by Oude Delft. 

Wilson

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[willeica]

46 minutes ago, eastwestphoto said:

M. Simba lens is a modified early version Rigid, his serial # 167812 proves that.  Its coated, its collapsible, it has 12 CIRCULAR aperture blades. Its Very RARE and unknown variation! Regards, Don

Its not that rare and is certainly not an unknown variation or variant. Many Rigid Summars were 'upgraded' to collapsible in the 1930s by being sent back to Leica under a program which they had at that time. That is one of the reasons why there are so few Rigid Summars around today and why they are so much more expensive than their collapsible equivalents. Many Summars were coated in later years. A quarter ( 3 out of 12) of my Summars are coated.

William