Full stops/half stops

[Guest )-(]

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Having an M7, I might be more attuned to this issue - I was wondering if there's any history to the M film bodies using full stop shutter speeds but half stop aperture settings.

 

I realise it doesn't make an enormous difference with film, I was just curious since I often find myself holding the shutter to lock exposure because it metered at a half stop (so I can't just dial it in on the shutter.) I could use aperture to compensate for the half stop, though I generally don't.

 

Is the m7 the only film body that does half stops? And always half stops on the lenses?

Thanks.

[adan]

Shutter speeds - Only the M7 electronic shutter has defined intermediate speeds (with one exception). Mechanical M shutters can be set between the engraved speeds, but the actual speed achieved is only calibrated at the engraved speeds. The exception noted above is that mechanical shutters can be set to the intermediate speed for electronic flash sync designated by the lightning-bolt symbol (1/50th sec, between 1/30 and 1/60). I've used that to "cheat" in low light, when 1/60 would underexpose, but 1/30 would produce camera shake.

 

Aperture stops - Leica never to my knowledge used 1/3rd stops. Some early lenses had no click stops at all (e.g 50mm Elmar f/3.5) - the friction of the aperture needle was enough to hold the setting in place, and thus one could set a lens anywhere (for example) between f/5.6 and f/8. Additionally the early lenses often used oddball "full" stop markings - e.g. f/3.5 - f/4.5 - f/6.3 - f/9 - f/12.5 - f/18. Some older (European?) system that eventually gave way to the universal square-root-of-two prime apertures.

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/images/50mm-f35/D3S_9680-front-1200.jpg

[Trivette]

The M2, M3, and M6 have only full stop detents for the shutter speeds. Some lenses have half-stop detents for the larger apertures but not for the smaller. I'm too sleepy to check them all right now. You can dial in intermediate apertures by guessing.

[cbretteville]

The only mechanical camera I've used that has anything but the full stop shutter speed settings is my father's old Rolleicord Vb. The compeer shutter (as well as the aperture) does not have click stops. None of the mechanical 35mm cameras I've used have that, they all have full stop clicks.

Cheers, Carl 

[250swb]

I think that by the time you get down to half stops with a typical averaging meter you should be looking at the scene to determine which way to go rather than simply follow the meter. As the person in charge you then become the intelligent version of a spot meter and can overrule an average reading depending on the light balance in the scene. The easiest and fastest way to do this is with the aperture ring.

[Guest )-(]

Thanks all, I was just curious since the M7 'presents' the scene in half stop shutter speeds.

 

I hadn't even considered other camera brands. I suppose there is a historical limit to shutter speed accuracy anyway.

I'm familiar with controlling exposure, the zone system and so on, but certainly have plenty to learn.

 

Just an idiosyncracy of the M7 experience in comparison to the other film bodies. I do tend to shoot in 'aperture priority' even if I manually choose shutter speed, the only exception being issues of motion.

 

Maths was never my strong suit, it's the dark heart of photography to me, a means to an end that doesn't come naturally!

[earleygallery]

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Thanks all, I was just curious since the M7 'presents' the scene in half stop shutter speeds.

 

I hadn't even considered other camera brands. I suppose there is a historical limit to shutter speed accuracy anyway.

I'm familiar with controlling exposure, the zone system and so on, but certainly have plenty to learn.

 

Just an idiosyncracy of the M7 experience in comparison to the other film bodies. I do tend to shoot in 'aperture priority' even if I manually choose shutter speed, the only exception being issues of motion.

 

Maths was never my strong suit, it's the dark heart of photography to me, a means to an end that doesn't come naturally!

 

If you're using your M7 in AE mode then the camera will set the shutter speed (at full and intermediate stops).

 

How do you set the shutter speed and still shoot in AE though??

[jaapv]

Having an M7, I might be more attuned to this issue - I was wondering if there's any history to the M film bodies using full stop shutter speeds but half stop aperture settings.

 

I realise it doesn't make an enormous difference with film, I was just curious since I often find myself holding the shutter to lock exposure because it metered at a half stop (so I can't just dial it in on the shutter.) I could use aperture to compensate for the half stop, though I generally don't.

 

Is the m7 the only film body that does half stops? And always half stops on the lenses?

Thanks.

No - not always on lenses. Zeiss uses third stops.

[Guest )-(]

Sorry, I should be clearer. I mean that, irrespective of the mode the camera is in, shutter speed is most frequently the variable in the exposure triangle I'm varying.

 

i.e.; I know I would like the shot at f/8.0, I know I have ISO 400 film, so...

I'd then meter and shoot, or set the result of the meter reading (adjusted if the aperture I want changes) until the light changes or I want something more particular with shadow or highlights.

 

It just makes it an M7-unique experience sometimes since I have 1/180 at f/8.0, so I retain 1/180 using Exposure Lock or adjust my Aperture by 1/2 stop. To be honest, if I could 'turn off' half stop shutter speed AE, I might, just for a more consistent experience between the meter's suggestion and the shutter dial options.

Not a big deal in the scheme of things, I was just curious.

[MarkP]

I think he means:

Keeps the camera in Auto

Pans the scene and determine the best for scene and exposure

Lock in the shutter speed by depressing the shutter release button half-way

Recomposing

and Shoot.

 

 

So it's really semi-automatic - just allowing the camera to virtually move the shutter dial rather than me doing it manually.

It is remarkably quick and how I often use the camera in Auto.

Where I have to move fast I find this much quicker than manually adjusting the shutter speed dial having to bring the camera down from my eye.

[MarkP]

No - not always on lenses. Zeiss uses third stops.

 

As you know have, or have had, a number of Zeiss lenses. I like their ergonomics except for the 1/3 stop settings.

 

I like knowing that on the aperture ring and shutter speed dials each detent is an equivalent 1/2 stop change in exposure.

So if I have a manually set shutter speed and aperture but want to make a quick change in one or the other I just need to move the ring/dials in different directions and count the same number of clicks.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

 

Leitz has been known for making cameras with shutters that could be set to certain intermediate speeds for an extended period of time.

 

Later M3's were advertised as having shutters continuously accurate within 10% except between 1/8th & 1/15th and also between 1/30th & 1/60th (except for 1/50th which was usable).

 

M5's were advertised as having shutters that could be set to intermediate speeds except between 1/30th & 1/60th (except for 1/50th which was usable).

 

Film SL's were advertised as having shutters that could be set to intermediate speeds except between 1/4th & 1/8th and also between 1/30th & 1/60th.

 

Some later "M" film cameras specifically said they DID NOT have shutters that could be set to intermediate speeds.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Guest )-(]

Thanks Michael, Mark and everyone. Interesting on the older M bodies with inbetween speeds.

 

I think what I should have said earlier is simply that the M7 Auto mode doesn't sit equally with using the shutter dial manually.

 

As Mark said, we are 'virtually' moving to half stops in A mode.

A mode is great, hugely useful. I am frequently flicking between it and setting shutter speed manually with the dial.

 

It's just that for a relative film beginner like myself, I sometimes find the experience less intuitive because of the /A mode only/ half stop shutter speeds.

 

I often meter in A mode on a particular area (to find the exposure I want) to be given a number on the OVF, then manually transfer that speed to the dial so I can compose freely without having to meter again when I take a shot.

 

Since that number is often not on the shutter dial, it's just a little additional consideration. I'd imagine (and haven't ever used one so don't know for sure) that when you meter using an M6 and move the shutter dial, that half stop of consideration gets overlooked rather than everyone reaching for the aperture dial as well. ?

[TomB_tx]

Regarding the Zeiss 1/3 stops, the ZM lenses were introduced with the Ikon ZM body, which was similar concept to the M7 with AE available. In manual mode the ZM shutter is only full stops, but in Auto mode the exposure compensation is in 1/3 stops also. Not really relevant to matching lens click stops by feel, but consistent when correcting exposure in either manual or automatic.

[semi-ambivalent]

Shutter speeds...The exception noted above is that mechanical shutters can be set to the intermediate speed for electronic flash sync designated by the lightning-bolt symbol (1/50th sec, between 1/30 and 1/60).

 

http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/images/50mm-f35/D3S_9680-front-1200.jpg

Completely OT, but I've always thought my film M's shutters sounded particularly nice at 1/50.

 

s-a

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Coogee,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

You might try doing your "Aperture Preferred" manually:

 

With the camera set to any mechanical speed, altho it can help to do things faster if you guess a reasonably close shutter speed:

 

First set the lens to the aperture you think you want.

 

Then, meter a representative area & adjust the SHUTTER SPEED to as close a point to the correct setting as is possible.

 

Then fine tune the APERTURE until you have the lights in the range/viewfinder adjusted optimally.

 

You can speed up the time it takes you to do this by practicing various meter readings in your spare time without actually taking pictures.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael 

[adan]

s-a: I agree. Ever so slightly the quietest shutter speed.

[pico]

I think my M4-P needs to go to the doctor. The slight unwinding ping at speeds under 1/30th is gone. Maybe it never had it, but my M2 certainly does. Aw shucks. Off with the hearing aids and all is well until the next roll.

[sblitz]

M-4 manual expressly says that you can set intermediate speeds between the numbers. M-A manual says you can't -- although some have written you actually can. Not sure, however, how much that half-stop of speed really matters in any event.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[philipus]

It's funny you should say this; I've always felt this too.

 

Completely OT, but I've always thought my film M's shutters sounded particularly nice at 1/50.

 

s-a