M4 shutter timings

[PaulJohn]

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I bought an M4 about a month ago and have been really enjoying this wonderfully engineered machine. However I am wondering if the shutter timings are correct.

 

My first outing resulted in most things being underexposed and I put that down to my lack of experience in shooting a meterless camera using sunny 16. The day was heavy overcast so f5.6 should be right. However I had 400 tx loaded so I expected f11 to be about right for a shutter speed of 125. I shot mostly at f8 and was therefore surprised to find my film underexposed by 2 to 2 stops.

 

Next outing I decided to use my mobile phone's freshly installed light meter app and discovered it recommended 5.6 for 400 asa so I discovered that the sunny 16 rule does not work well for UK weather.  I think we need a new rule for England called Sunny 8. But surprise surprise when I developed this film I would say most of my shots were under exposed by 1 stop but at least they were recoverable in lightroom.

 

I have now got to wondering if it could be the camera. Am I correct to assume that problems would tend to result in over exposure rather than underexposure because declining spring tension would slow down the shutter.

 

Also am I correct to assume that if one speed is correct then they all will be correct. My reasoning is that the speeds must be controlled by gears so that every speed will always be double the previous speed. I understand that the higher speeds are attained with variable width slits in the curtain so I assume they also would always be relative to each other.

 

My next step is to waste a roll of film trying every shutter speed / aperture combination for a fixed EV.

 

If I can prove the camera is at fault I am sure the shop would CLA it for me free of charge but at this moment in time I suspect it's me not the camera.

 

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[Fotoklaus]

So we don´t  know wether your sunny- 16 usage was right for the light situation, or what you have measured with this app.

To be sure, use slide film, take pictures at several aperture/ Shutter-pairs and all from the same Motive under controlled light conditions

with a meter you can trust und with proper usage without a mistake. Evereything else is searching for something in the fog.

[TomB_tx]

When both my M4 and Leicaflex SL (both ought new in the 1960s) aged the faster shutter speeds got faster by at least a stop. Drying lubes can either get gummy and slow speeds, or get dry and lose the damping effect of light oil.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Paul,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

Back in the old days when the M4 was first released people used to buy these devices called light meters which were specifically built to help photographers determine appropriate exposure in a variety of situations.

 

They were actually quite commonly used by many people at that time. Including many professional, portrait & news photographers.

 

With the invention of internal, self contained exposure measuring systems in cameras, separate hand held or clip on light meters fell out of favor. As mechanical cameras that capture images on this equally outmoded medium called "film" have in the recent past.

 

There are any number of hand held or clip on light meters available today to help you in determining proper exposure.

 

You might consider buying 1 along with a text from the old days of hand held meters that teaches you how to use it.

 

I am not writing to suggest learning about a system of exposure determination such as the "Zone System" or something equally complex. 

 

Just a simple how to guide for light meters & exposure determination in most everyday situations.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[PaulJohn]

Hello Paul,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

Back in the old days when the M4 was first released people used to buy these devices called light meters which were specifically built to help photographers determine appropriate exposure in a variety of situations.

 

They were actually quite commonly used by many people at that time. Including many professional, portrait & news photographers.

 

With the invention of internal, self contained exposure measuring systems in cameras, separate hand held or clip on light meters fell out of favor. As mechanical cameras that capture images on this equally outmoded medium called "film" have in the recent past.

 

There are any number of hand held or clip on light meters available today to help you in determining proper exposure.

 

You might consider buying 1 along with a text from the old days of hand held meters that teaches you how to use it.

 

I am not writing to suggest learning about a system of exposure determination such as the "Zone System" or something equally complex. 

 

Just a simple how to guide for light meters & exposure determination in most everyday situations.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Thanks Michael,

 

I already understand the zone system and understand how to use a light meter properly. I do question whether an app is reliable but have heard good reports so I am reluctant to spend £100 on one. 

 

Thanks Tom for explaining that timings can get faster with age. I didn't expect that. 

 

I will test with a roll of film and compare to shots made on digital at same exposure settings and see what that looks like.

 

Thanks for suggestions

Paul

 

Kind regards

Paul

[250swb]

There are so many variables that remain a mystery I think you need to rule nothing out. What for example are you pointing the meter at on the dull overcast day, but grass or some other substance of equal reflectance would be a suggestion. Film processing, are the frame numbers on the edge of the film dense black while the frames are thin and under exposed, this would suggest the shutter speeds are off. If the numbers are also grey it would suggest under development. Etc.

 

 

Steve

[earleygallery]

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My first outing resulted in most things being underexposed and I put that down to my lack of experience in shooting a meterless camera using sunny 16. The day was heavy overcast so f5.6 should be right. However I had 400 tx loaded so I expected f11 to be about right for a shutter speed of 125. I shot mostly at f8 and was therefore surprised to find my film underexposed by 2 to 2 stops.

 

Next outing I decided to use my mobile phone's freshly installed light meter app and discovered it recommended 5.6 for 400 asa so I discovered that the sunny 16 rule does not work well for UK weather.  I think we need a new rule for England called Sunny 8. But surprise surprise when I developed this film I would say most of my shots were under exposed by 1 stop but at least they were recoverable in lightroom.

 

I find for the UK it's more like Sunny 11 - Sunny 16 only works on those really hot totally clear sunny days which we get 1 or maybe 2 of a year! You should 'calibrate' your brains meter based on taking some readings with a light meter/camera first and work from there.

 

Of course use of the Sunny rule depends on our own judgment of the light. What we don't know is just how overcast the weather was, and even then you can have brighter or duller conditions. The latitude of B&W film should allow for a decent margin of error in any case. I've tried a metering app for the phone and found that it wasn't always accurate - sometimes it gave me readings which were way off. I found it best to take a reading off something like a post box, my hand or the pavement.

 

The best way to meter accurately is of course to use a proper hand held meter, and ideally one which takes incident readings too.

 

As mentioned then we throw the processing into the mix and that's another variable we don't know about.

 

I think you should shoot a roll of film, in the same even lighting conditions, take an accurate reading using another camera and shoot the roll at different shutter speed/aperture combinations and see how those results look.

[sblitz]

+1 -- James is absolutely correct. BTW, 100 is not a lot of money against lots of rolls of film and developing and scanning costs, not to say the cost of the camera and lens(es). AND, you probably drop a 100 now and then on sillier things than a meter.

[spydrxx]

You could always get a (relatively) inexpensive electronic shutter speed tester. The M4 is easy to test with the back flipping up. I picked up one a few years ago for use with vintage bodies I pick up...not so much as to determine if the speeds match what is on the speed dial, but to see what the variances are, and whether they are withing tolerance for the films I'm using. It has been a great help (not so much with the Leicas, but moreso with other rangefinders) giving me a better base for exposure when the speeds are off by more than 1/3 stop (fairly infrequently, I may add). As for the Sunny 16 rule application...I do a visual/mental quiz a couple times each year in different weather conditions against my meter just to keep my perception sharp. I have often heard that in the UK it is more like Sunny 11 and the NZ is also different.

[PaulJohn]

You could always get a (relatively) inexpensive electronic shutter speed tester. The M4 is easy to test with the back flipping up. I picked up one a few years ago for use with vintage bodies I pick up...not so much as to determine if the speeds match what is on the speed dial, but to see what the variances are, and whether they are withing tolerance for the films I'm using. It has been a great help (not so much with the Leicas, but moreso with other rangefinders) giving me a better base for exposure when the speeds are off by more than 1/3 stop (fairly infrequently, I may add). As for the Sunny 16 rule application...I do a visual/mental quiz a couple times each year in different weather conditions against my meter just to keep my perception sharp. I have often heard that in the UK it is more like Sunny 11 and the NZ is also different.

 

 

I've searched for this product and found an app !!!!!

 

http://www.lomography.com/magazine/233990-shutter-speed-tester-for-your-iphone

 

I can pair this with one of these

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Camera-shutter-tester-with-light-source-for-smartphone-and-tablet-up-to-1-1000th-/161854700867?hash=item25af4abd43:g:~OgAAOSwl9BWGkD8

 

Cheap and easy to do.

 

The light meter app I have been using is an incident reader. I will test the app accuracy by comparing it with my digital camera later today.

[TomB_tx]

^{I use one of the stand-alone shutter testers from this eBay source. It works well, and heis a reliable vendor.}

[PaulJohn]

My light meter arrived today and I now know that my phone app incident readings are 1 stop darker. I've tested my camera using shutter sounds from 1 to 1/125 and I think it is accurate.

 

Once the headphone mounted photo sensor arrives I will know for sure and be able to measure upto 1/1000.

 

This is fun.

[pico]

The M4 is easy to test with the back flipping up. [snipped good article]

 

It is even better because the flip back removes entirely with a little slide to the side.

 

Regarding the shutter speed app, I would question its accuracy if every speed was off the same amount.

[PaulJohn]

Just developed a roll of agfa APX 400 that I shot yesterday with exposures given by a light meter (sekonic 308s) and everything is 1 stop under exposed. Hmmm.

[earleygallery]

Can you post some examples?

[pico]

Just developed a roll of agfa APX 400 that I shot yesterday with exposures given by a light meter (sekonic 308s) and everything is 1 stop under exposed. Hmmm.

 

How do you know it is one stop underexposed? Are the negatives thin? Is your meter possibly set to exposure adjustment (+,-)? Is the exposure dome up or retracted?

[semi-ambivalent]

Is your meter possibly set to exposure adjustment (+,-)? Is the exposure dome up or retracted?

I don't think the 308 has facilities for the former. Good point on the latter.

 

I'd look at my 308S now but there's folks here who expect me to do some real work...

 

s-a

[PaulJohn]

Can you post some examples?

Hope this works:

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[PaulJohn]

I don't think the 308 has facilities for the former. Good point on the latter.

 

I'd look at my 308S now but there's folks here who expect me to do some real work...

 

s-a

The white dome is over the sensor

[PaulJohn]

For development I am using Film Developer Pro app which states 7 mins 15 secs for this film developed in Ilford's Ilfosol 3 at 20 degrees with 1 minute inversions.

 

I have always trusted this as it has give me good results with 400TX but this is the first time I have used Agfa APX 400.

 

I have just looked at filmdev.org http://filmdev.org/recipe/show/9458 which suggests 9 mins at 24 degrees with 30 secs between agitations (i.e. a lot more development). My app suggests only 4 mins 15 secs for this temp and agitation frequency. I now suspect it is the dev not the camera.

 

The photos don't react too badly to adding a stop in Lightroom with only 1 stop under. 2 stops under does create too much noise.