Leica R and M lenses on the Leica SL (Typ 601)

[Manoleica]

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Lets be honest, if a professional needs a camera or a lens or both they know exactly what they want/need.. Pseudo professionals will believe the marketing hype... Marketing is a multi million dollar sector in todays retail strategy, everything is advertised from cars to condoms.. A new car does not make you a better driver! a new camera (Leica or whatever) does not make you a better photographer! IMHO...

[Vec]

If what was written above is true -- that cross-platform adaptors are in the cards -- I would sign up for the SL in a heartbeat.

 

I have 20 years of Canon glass built up next to me. I just got into the M system as well, but the M isn't a replacement for the Canon AF gear. (I have to keep telling the wife that) Macros, zooms, etc.

 

If the AF optics I have now can work with the SL... well you have a winner right there. Sign me up!

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[jaapv]

Lets be honest, if a professional needs a camera or a lens or both they know exactly what they want/need.. Pseudo professionals will believe the marketing hype... Marketing is a multi million dollar sector in todays retail strategy, everything is advertised from cars to condoms.. A new car does not make you a better driver! a new camera (Leica or whatever) does not make you a better photographer! IMHO...

Of course not. Maybe a better word would be professional-grade. But some differentiation is not bad.

[scott kirkpatrick]

 

your 4 points actually fall into two categories I think:

 

1. Reading the ROM

in this case the same functionality could be used to read the aperture. Actually the SL does a remarkably good job of estimating the Aperture with R lenses already). 

 

2. Controlling the Aperture

This is much more complex as the  adapter will need a micro motor to change the aperture on the lens. In addition to AASD this should also allow T and P mode for R lenses. I'd love to see this, but I imagine development would be expensive ( both in terms of the hardware and camera firmware) and I wonder if they would sell enough adapters to make it worthwhile?

 

That's looking at the adapter question from the lens end and only for R lenses, which are manual focus.  To turn the question to the SL end of the task, and generalize it to the support of other popular high quality lenses (C, N and Z):

 

Will the SL firmware be able to 

 

1.  Recognize and report in the EXIF foreign lenses, Leica M, S, and R at least, and a category of "other" for the rest.

2.  Record and Control aperture in a way that a smart adapter can utilize

3.  Support autofocus in a way that adapters can use.    Recent interview suggests that this is expected, but what's Leica doing to make it happen?

 

scott

[mjh]

Imagine if Leica produced them themselves.

I’m trying to but I fail to see any advantage to that scenario. There are third-party vendors specialising in that kind of product; assuming that Leica is helpful when it comes to support the L mount these vendors could probably do a better job than Leica could.

[IkarusJohn]

I’m trying to but I fail to see any advantage to that scenario. There are third-party vendors specialising in that kind of product; assuming that Leica is helpful when it comes to support the L mount these vendors could probably do a better job than Leica could.

 

Okay, let me help you. 

 

If Leica is serious about the SL being a pro camera, then it needs to offer more than just an albeit very good 24-90 zoom. Can we agree to that?  So, it is fair to accept that most pros will really not be buying this camera for regular use until a wider range of particularly long AF lenses are available. Leica currently has no long AF lenses on offer.

 

Most pros currently use Nikon and/or Canon long AF lenses. 

 

When in roughly the same position, Leica produced adapters so the S could use Hasselblad, Mamiya and Contax lenses:

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?N=0&gclid=CjwKEAiA1JuyBRCogJLz4J71kj0SJADsd6QRGpljbuxrl4wmH67GFBvimCzysJOgfq4ce0EH-twgkBoCsajw_wcB&InitialSearch=yes&Ntt=Leica+S+Adapter+For

 

Clever, no?  Pros interested in the system can continue to use the lenses they have with the SL, while they wait for more SL lenses to be released. Why would Leica do this?  Sell more cameras, and get people onto the system earlier. Why not leave it to third parties?  Novoflex, pretty much the best adapter provider, has made the R-L adapter, and it's dumb. No coding, nothing.

 

If Leica wants the camera to be successful, they need to get the cameras into the hands of professionals, and amateur users. Leica owns the intellectual property of the L mount, the M codes and the R lens ROM. They have shown that they can and will do this for the S system, why not do it with the SL. 

 

Are those enough advantages?  The obvious, unstated one, is that Leica would not be seen to be arrogant (again), and that they understand that the market they have jumped into is populated not by people who own other Leica lenses (though some will), but largely by Nikon and Canon users, with a lot of capital tied up in very good lenses. Very few professionals in that sector will be starting from scratch and investing only in the SL system, with only one lens.  

 

So, isn't the question, what has Leica to lose by producing such adapters?  It won't be future lens sales, as people own the Nikon and Canon glass already. What they gain is increased camera sales in the early stages, and future lens sales as people migrate over to the new system. 

 

No brainer, wouldn't you say?

 

As for making them, as with anything, Leica can just subcontract that out to Novoflex or anyone else with the skill to precision manufacture - they already "make" S adapters, R-M adapters and R-L adapters, and they've announced an S-L adapter. I don't think making adapters is a problem for Leica. 

 

Getting the intellectual property for Nikon & Canon mounts may be an issue - are they patented?  Somehow Sony got they A7 mount compatible with the Canon. Zeiss make lenses in both Nikon and Canon mount. How hard can it be?

Edited November 15, 2015 by IkarusJohn

[k-hawinkler]

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John, spot on.  Thanks.

[ramarren]

John,

 

As I said up-thread, I feel that the S cameras represent a completely different business case and a totally different market. Look at the adapters offered: only two of them include AF/AE capabilities, the S-Adapter C and S-Adapter H, and I can imagine that Kyocera and Fuji might have been happy to license the Contax 645 and Hasselblad H specs as they would incite more lens sales. Note also that these two adapters cost nearly US$2K apiece, which is almost double the cost of 90% of Canon and Nikon lenses. Contax 645 has been discontinued but those Zeiss lenses were pretty darn pricey if I recall correctly. Hasselblad H are still selling new lenses, at $3000 to $6000 (maybe more) per lens. And there are only so many different lenses to cover and test against. 

 

I see no motivation for Canon or Nikon to license their AF/AE mount and protocol specs to Leica, so building compatible lenses is a reverse engineering job. This carries with it both product and customer support burdens. There are dozens of different Canon and Nikon lenses, built over a long period of time; that's a testing nightmare. Sony licenses their EF mount specification for others to build adapters against ... they don't build Canon EF adapters themselves, they only build smart adapters for their own lenses. That pushes the burdens to the third party vendor, not to Sony. Read the EULA on the Metabones "smart" adapters. :-)

[wildlightphoto]

.... Look at the adapters offered: only two of them include AF/AE capabilities, the S-Adapter C and S-Adapter H, and I can imagine that Kyocera and Fuji might have been happy to license the Contax 645 and Hasselblad H specs as they would incite more lens sales....

 

Leica reverse-engineered the Hasselblad H and Contax 645 protocol.  And provided lens profiles for the H if not both sets of lenses.

[Vec]

If Leica (or someone else, whatever) has a Canon EF mount to L mount I would put myself on the wait list tomorrow. I have some M glass, but a lot of Canon EF gear as well. If I could use that to transition it would make the shift seamless.

[IkarusJohn]

If Leica (or someone else, whatever) has a Canon EF mount to L mount I would put myself on the wait list tomorrow. I have some M glass, but a lot of Canon EF gear as well. If I could use that to transition it would make the shift seamless.

A number of people have made this comment.

 

It's pretty obvious, if you consider what's possible and what might actually increase sales, rather than thinking up reasons not to do something. But, there we go ...

Edited November 15, 2015 by IkarusJohn

[IkarusJohn]

John,

 

As I said up-thread, I feel that the S cameras represent a completely different business case and a totally different market. Look at the adapters offered: only two of them include AF/AE capabilities, the S-Adapter C and S-Adapter H, and I can imagine that Kyocera and Fuji might have been happy to license the Contax 645 and Hasselblad H specs as they would incite more lens sales. Note also that these two adapters cost nearly US$2K apiece, which is almost double the cost of 90% of Canon and Nikon lenses. Contax 645 has been discontinued but those Zeiss lenses were pretty darn pricey if I recall correctly. Hasselblad H are still selling new lenses, at $3000 to $6000 (maybe more) per lens. And there are only so many different lenses to cover and test against. 

 

I see no motivation for Canon or Nikon to license their AF/AE mount and protocol specs to Leica, so building compatible lenses is a reverse engineering job. This carries with it both product and customer support burdens. There are dozens of different Canon and Nikon lenses, built over a long period of time; that's a testing nightmare. Sony licenses their EF mount specification for others to build adapters against ... they don't build Canon EF adapters themselves, they only build smart adapters for their own lenses. That pushes the burdens to the third party vendor, not to Sony. Read the EULA on the Metabones "smart" adapters. :-)

Yes, you did say that.

[ramarren]

Leica reverse-engineered the Hasselblad H and Contax 645 protocol.  And provided lens profiles for the H if not both sets of lenses.

 

Interesting to hear it, but it doesn't change my opinion. It's fundamentally a different market space from Canon/Nikon. 

[ramarren]

A number of people have made this comment.

 

It's pretty obvious, if you consider what's possible and what might actually increase sales, rather than thinking up reasons not to do something. But, there we go ...

 

John, 

 

Dont get me wrong: if a Nikon AF to SL mount adapter comes on the market and works, at a reasonable price, I'll take advantage of it. I have a wonderful Nikon 180/2.8 AF-D that I'd use on the SL given the option. I just don't see the business case for Leica to produce it, I think that kind of product belongs in third party hands. 

[mjh]

So, isn't the question, what has Leica to lose by producing such adapters?

No, that isn’t the question. The first question is whether it would be helpful if photographers could adapt their existing Leica (M, R, S) or third-party lenses to the SL. Leica has considered that question and apparently their answer is in the affirmative. The second question is whether Leica should build the required adapters themselves, and their answer is that they will, as far as bridging the gap between different Leica systems is concerned. Thus the M-to-L, R-to-L, and S-to-L adapters. What these adapters should do Leica knows best how to do. But re-engineering other vendor’s mounts? There are others with much more experience in that field and they could do a better job. Leica could provide a little help here and there, but that’s about it. Adapters are like weed – wherever there is a fertile soil they will sprout.

Edited November 15, 2015 by mjh

[thighslapper]

 

As for making them, as with anything, Leica can just subcontract that out to Novoflex or anyone else with the skill to precision manufacture - they already "make" S adapters, R-M adapters and R-L adapters, and they've announced an S-L adapter. I don't think making adapters is a problem for Leica. 

 

Getting the intellectual property for Nikon & Canon mounts may be an issue - are they patented?  Somehow Sony got they A7 mount compatible with the Canon. Zeiss make lenses in both Nikon and Canon mount. How hard can it be?

 

Novoflex are probably running them through the production line as we speak ....... they have often been quicker than Leica with adapters in the past. If Leica got involved it would take forever......

[IkarusJohn]

No, that isn’t the question. The first question is whether it would be helpful if photographers could adapt their existing Leica (M, R, S) or third-party lenses to the SL. Leica has considered that question and apparently their answer is in the affirmative. The second question is whether Leica should build the required adapters themselves, and their answer is that they will, as far as bridging the gap between different Leica systems is concerned. Thus the M-to-L, R-to-L, and S-to-L adapters. What these adapters should do Leica knows best how to do. But re-engineering other vendor’s mounts? There are others with much more experience in that field and they could do a better job. Leica could provide a little help here and there, but that’s about it. Adapters are like weed – wherever there is a fertile soil they will sprout.

 

Of course that's exactly the question.  

 

Perhaps, more worryingly, it is what Leica thinks is the important question. Ask yourself, how many professionals are sitting at home saying to themselves - here I am with 148 Leica lenses, waiting for a better solution than the M(240)?  While the assurance is good, any Leica using pro bought into Canon and or Nikon years ago when AF was perfected. Offering access to Leica glass and one AF zoom isn't enough. 

 

Leica has already confirmed that it will make adapters available for all Leica glass.  While good, that's hardly a huge concession, is it?  Otherwise it's a one lens system. 

 

Whether or or not others have the skills to make adapters for third party lenses is neither here nor there. Sure, third party suppliers "could do a better job". Leica has the most to gain, and they have done it before. The "weed" vendors (Novoflex for example) don't know the SL mount as well as Leica, and Leica did exactly that with the S system. 

 

I agree that this requires Leica to be more responsive than perhaps is their habit, and I also suspect you are accurately reflecting their thinking. Poor thinking, full of half baked excuses for not following up the rationale underlying the SL.  I don't say that to be rude, but to challenge what looks like a lack of any rational thought, and to be honest it sounds patronising. 

 

It would be very easy to do something jointly with Novoflex - I don't think anyone would mind a little bit of blue on the adapter. 

[jonoslack]

I agree that this requires Leica to be more responsive than perhaps is their habit, and I also suspect you are accurately reflecting their thinking. Poor thinking, full of half baked excuses for not following up the rationale underlying the SL.  I don't say that to be rude, but to challenge what looks like a lack of any rational thought, and to be honest it sounds patronising. 

 

It would be very easy to do something jointly with Novoflex - I don't think anyone would mind a little bit of blue on the adapter. 

Metabones seem to have the most experience with AF and adapters (although Novoflex is closer to home).

 

But look at it another way - my suspicion that Leica's biggest problem over the next few months is to build enough of these cameras - it would seem that both the Q and the new Monochrom are selling like hot cakes, and from what I hear there will be a shortage of SL cameras as well. They probably have limited resources, and perhaps those resources are better directed towards producing cameras and lenses in the near future. 

 

When they need to sell more SL cameras - then you bet they'll be concentrating on adapters!

[jaapv]

Of course that's exactly the question.  

 

Perhaps, more worryingly, it is what Leica thinks is the important question. Ask yourself, how many professionals are sitting at home saying to themselves - here I am with 148 Leica lenses, waiting for a better solution than the M(240)?  While the assurance is good, any Leica using pro bought into Canon and or Nikon years ago when AF was perfected. Offering access to Leica glass and one AF zoom isn't enough. 

 

Leica has already confirmed that it will make adapters available for all Leica glass.  While good, that's hardly a huge concession, is it?  Otherwise it's a one lens system. 

 

Whether or or not others have the skills to make adapters for third party lenses is neither here nor there. Sure, third party suppliers "could do a better job". Leica has the most to gain, and they have done it before. The "weed" vendors (Novoflex for example) don't know the SL mount as well as Leica, and Leica did exactly that with the S system. 

 

I agree that this requires Leica to be more responsive than perhaps is their habit, and I also suspect you are accurately reflecting their thinking. Poor thinking, full of half baked excuses for not following up the rationale underlying the SL.  I don't say that to be rude, but to challenge what looks like a lack of any rational thought, and to be honest it sounds patronising. 

 

It would be very easy to do something jointly with Novoflex - I don't think anyone would mind a little bit of blue on the adapter. 

Leica does cooperate with Novoflex. They are the only adapter manufacturer allowed to use M 6-bit coding for instance.

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[ramarren]

LOL!

 

Anyone who can afford to own 148 Leica lenses would just buy the SL and an adapter for the heck of it, whether it worked with anything else or not, and make their own decision whether it was a nice enough toy. .... 

 

That "Leica pro" who bought into Nikon or Canon AF is hardly sitting on the edge of their seat desperately waiting to return to Der Vaterland either, I bet. They might want to try the SL but will wait until a good, proven adapter is available. From whomever. Why should they rush? What's the value upside? Do you presume that they are unhappy with their Nikon/Canon equipment choices? 

 

Why would Leica want them to rush? Leica doesn't build systems in a hurry, they build them to have lasting value. One of the joys of the M is that I can use nice fifty year old lenses on it and see very similar imaging qualities to what I did on film fifty years ago. That's the value proposition, not the fact that it's the latest and greatest new gizmo. I suspect that those who care the most about the SL are thinking in longer terms than the latest hot gizmo and are patient enough to wait for solutions to their needs. 

Edited November 15, 2015 by ramarren