New Leica M coming this year?

[ayewing]

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Ideally what Leica needs is a design that allows for module upgradeability. Not sure if they can achieve it.

 

 

Ricoh tried this approach with the GXR system but have now abandoned it presumably because it did not prove economically viable. The GXR camera body was available with with a series of modules each containing both a lens and the sensor with the exception of the M module which had an APS-C sensor optimised for rangefinder lenses and a Leica M mount which could accept most Leica lenses and with a suitable adapter many other makes. The modules cost as much if not more than the camera body. It made for a rather expensive system when launched. Such an approach might work better for Leica as a rangefinder body is more expensive and probably less prone to obsolecence than the sensor and camera mount module. However it is probably a better business model to persuade your customers to upgrade the whole camera on a three year cycle as seems to be the current plan.

[Loren]

From a personal standpoint, because I know what is good for me, but not necessarily Leica, I'd be totally happy with my M8 if it simply had high ISO performance similar to the Nikon Dƒ.

 

If Leica found a better (and cheaper) way to make the rangefinder mechanism that would be a plus as it would make an entry level M more affordable and perhaps bring new customers to the line. 12 to 16mp would be fine and it would leave room for the 240 and its successors at the top rung of the lineup, but would probably kill the M9 & M-E off, which is nearing end of life anyway.

[wlaidlaw]

Ramchand, 

 

I don't think I will be in the market for a new M (and I have been buying them since 1967), unless it does something fairly cutting edge with the viewfinder rangefinder. I think the current series of M's is in the position Leica was with the II and IIIF and that the current RF technology has reached its limit. I am delighted with the sensor of the M240 and whereas I would like some quieter and higher ISO, I can manage perfectly well without. However I do use the EVF quite a bit with different non-RF coupled lenses, which is one reason I much prefer the M240 to my M9, apart from the fact that the sensor does not constantly catch measles. The EVF wart on the top is not a great solution, let alone the poor quality EVF-2, which is painfully apparent when I use the later Olympus VF-4, with 50% greater screen area, faster refresh and over twice the pixels. If Leica could jump a technology, which according to Moore's Law, should be eminently doable and come up with a VF with around 5 million pixels, I think that is about the limit of resolution of the human eye. Therefore, as long as it had a fast refresh and no smearing, it would be as good as an optical VF in pretty much every way and lots better in many others. Once you have a super high rez EVF, you can access all sorts of clever technologies for focusing, infra red, laser, phase detection, etc in place of the delicate and fiddly rotating mirrors and prisms. 

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

Too late  Gratical and Blackmagic already have 0.61" EVF screens with 5.4 megapixels on them, so they are there for Leica to access. 

 

Wilson

[algrove]

As for upgrading, Leica already has that system in place--buy the next new M whatever.

[IkarusJohn]

As for upgrading, Leica already has that system in place--buy the next new M whatever.

 

Yes, that's the problem - the entire camera (optical rangefinder, brass body, batteries and accessories) have the life span of the cheapest, crappiest bit. 

[jdlaing]

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Yes, that's the problem - the entire camera (optical rangefinder, brass body, batteries and accessories) have the life span of the cheapest, crappiest bit. 

Name one thing on this planet that doesn't have that same issue. Weakest link syndrome.

[luigi bertolotti]

 

 

.....

 

Ideally what Leica needs is a design that allows for module upgradeability. Not sure if they can achieve it.

They cannot by sure : too much dependency on delicate parts outsourced to providers who cannot play such a game for a rather low volumes customer like Leica.

[IkarusJohn]

Name one thing on this planet that doesn't have that same issue. Weakest link syndrome.

 

That's not the point.  Everything has a weak link of some sort, though not as glaring as a beautiful M camera body and cheap electronics.  The point is that manufacturers of high cost products (e.g. cars) tend to support them, and deal with the weak links, better than Leica.

 

Proof? M8 coffee stain, M9 sensors ...

 

My suggestion?  Standardise the body, standardise the dimensions of the electronics (accepting that they will need to be replaced before the majority of the camera is even halfway through its usable life) and manage the supply chain properly so that owners can repair, or upgrade, their cameras at their option.  It won't be cheap, but at least make it possible.  Leicas aren't cheap in the first place.  If I could upgrade the sensor and electronics in my M Edition 60, at my option and cost, in 10 years time I'd be very happy.

 

The form factor of the M cameras hasn't changed that much in the last 60 years, and I can still get the rangefinder on my 55 year old M3 serviced and repaired.  This is hardly revolutionary.  What isn't acceptable is discarding a lovely camera because some cheap piece of electronics has failed and Leica hasn't maintained its supply chain properly.

 

Luigi's point is the critical one - Leica needs to ensure that its orders are sufficiently large in volume terms to require continued manufacturing of parts, or it needs to control that supply itself.  The fact that CMOSIS apparently developed the M(240) sensor specifically for Leica does suggest that their volumes are reasonable.  If the sensor was upgradeable, that would increase the numbers of sensors ordered ...

 

Cheers

John

[jdlaing]

I sincerely doubt they will ever offer a modular design or one with replaceable innards.

[IkarusJohn]

I sincerely doubt they will ever offer a modular design or one with replaceable innards.

 

 

One can but hope.  At this stage, they don't seem to be able to provide existing parts - I guess it is too much to hope for upgradeable parts.  Leaving aside Leica's struggle to join the rest of us in the 21st century, technically and commercially I see no reason why Leica couldn't provide what is suggested - it could actually increase sales.

 

However, for a company that cannot even get the MTF charts and physical proportions of their latest product right, I'm not holding my breath ...

[Jon Warwick]

Yes, that's the problem - the entire camera (optical rangefinder, brass body, batteries and accessories) have the life span of the cheapest, crappiest bit.

I'm a massive fan of Leica, but it is partly for this quoted reason that I am now looking at another system (completely different to Leica), such as the Alpa TC camera. Superb engineering of the bodies and superb lenses (and accessories) that could be considered a lifetime purchase in themselves - BUT using a "sensor" (either digital or roll film back) that can switched around / upgraded whenever.

[wlaidlaw]

Cast your mind back a few Chief Executives to Stephen Lee and recall that an upgradable Leica M was precisely what he promised us. Unfortunately it was the Chief Executive that was upgradable and not the M 

 

Wilson

[pop]

The point is that manufacturers of high cost products (e.g. cars) tend to support them, and deal with the weak links, better than Leica.

 

Proof? M8 coffee stain, M9 sensors ...

 

True for the coffee stain, not true for the M9 sensor. They do deal with that. They will replace every sensor which fails. The say the are working on a more robust one. That's "dealing with the problem". Besides, they stopped using sensors by that source for their newer models.

[IkarusJohn]

... They will replace every sensor which fails ... 

 

They [sAY they] will replace every sensor which fails [for the next 10 years?].

 

It won't be their fault when they can't.

[pop]

They [sAY they] will replace every sensor which fails [for the next 10 years?].

 

It won't be their fault when they can't.

Do you have any indication, not to mention proof, that they will not honor their promise made here and on their web site?

 

They did admit that the failure to procure a sufficient number of working LCD panels for the M8 was their fault and they offer a discount for exchanging an M8 with a defective display for a later model. You may or may not like the offer, of course. But then, as we read here, the failures of the M8 displays are largely of a cosmetic nature and an some cameras the discoloration even disappeared spontaneously after a while.

 

So, what  exactly are you insinuating?

[IkarusJohn]

I'm not insinuating anything.

 

I'm saying quite clearly that Leica SAY they will replace the sensors for as long as necessary and they are looking for a permanent upgrade to the sensor problem.

 

What will happen is that Leica will announce that they can no longer source CCD sensors, so they will offer the discounted replacement cameras instead. The discount will be nominal. They won't provide a permanent solution.

 

I have no proof, save that this is a pattern they have followed before.

 

To think that Leica will invest money in a technology solution for sensors they will shortly stop using is unrealistic. They don't even support the firmware on their current cameras.

 

The only economic solution to the CCD sensor problem is to migrate owners to new CMOSIS based cameras. We can expect Leica to discontinue the single remaining CCD based camera, the M-E, this year. They won't be able to replace those sensors for the next 10 years (they'll apologise and say it is out of their hands) - they'll then offer a modest discount on a new camera. Everyone here will say the discount is generous as a 5 year old digital camera is worth nothing anyway.

 

I traded my otherwise immaculate M9P for an M-A. My current digital M cameras will be my last, unless something changes. This level of waste is just not sustainable - the world is changing.

[AlanJW]

 

 This level of waste is just not sustainable - the world is changing.

Welcome to the digital world.  Yes the world is changing but the "level of waste" is not only sustainable, it is the way camera companies do business and make profits.  And they do business this way because that is what the marketplace, like it or not, is driving them to.

As long as there are sufficient customers for the next iteration or some variant (like your M60 John; some might say that is wasteful; I say it is giving customers what they want -- and making a nice profit on it ), there will be more iterations and variants. If there are noises from customers that they wish for a different sensor or EVF or some other feature, Leica is going to see an opportunity and provide products people will buy, not necessarily because they need them, but because they want them.   The Japanese companies have honed this to a fine art and Leica's roughly three year cycle is a long one in this business.  So I would not expect expect that Leica will somehow change to some "sustainable" state because that means status quo and status quo in this market means eventual death.   

[timde]

From this http://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/About-Leica-News/Global/2014/Important-Information-Concerning-the-CCD-Sensors:

 

 

 

We have now identified the problem and are currently concentrating our efforts on finding a permanent technical solution.

 

 I would infer that the permanent technical solution might be the M240    But then others have inferred, with or without proof, that the problem is not so wide spread ... so if that was the case then spending money on a _very_ old sensor design would not make much sense especially when the repair cost seems to be not much less than it costs Leica to make a M240, for which there seems to be plenty of stock at the moment.

 

However, if the problem is actually quite wide spread ... 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lct]

What will happen is that Leica will announce that they can no longer source CCD sensors, so they will offer the discounted replacement cameras instead. The discount will be nominal. They won't provide a permanent solution.

 

+1. Only question is not if but when this will happen. Nothing surprising in that though.