Leica Upgrade program for M9 ( corrosion of sensor)

[uroman]

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Nice response to the issue which might almost ruined the Leica Digital. Better late than never. Applaud

 

 

I am a relatively new leica customer - bought my M9 3 years ago. I was going to sell based on the sensor issue, and had even considered moving to sony, etc. I have the income to stay with Leica, but I am not interested in throwing money away for a flawed product.

 

This new guarantee has encouraged me to stay with leica until the next M, and purchase that one or a monochrom m240 if it should ever come out.

 

However, without this guarantee, I would have likely left Leica. Understandably, i am aware that Leica is a premium product and a different experience. However, reliability is important at the 6000-8000 USD range. I hope that Leica is aware that NEW customers who are young, like myself (I have ZERO interest in film - ever), have a strong interest in corporate accountability at this price level.

 

Thank you Leica for the guarantee. Instead of selling, i will buy more. Now let's get an M240 monochrom out so i can purchase another camera.

[otto.f]

Personally, unless you intended buying an 240 in the first place, I would keep on using my ME.

 

Says an avid M240 user..., which I am not, but I advise the same.

[asiafish]

Like many here, I have dreamed of owning a Leica for many years, and finally two-years-ago sold my beloved Harley-Davidson motorcycle and bought the M Monochrom, a few lenses and later on, an X Vario as a color complement.

 

I've never had sensor issues beyond the usual dust and dirt from use, and always had the sensor professionally cleaned, but as I kept reading more and more, I was getting nervous about the long-term prospects of keeping my $8,000 camera. Finally this week (the day before Herr Daniel's announcement) I sent my camera to Leica for sensor cleaning (its really filthy) and to a check-up before the warranty runs out. My plan was to sell it when it came back and be content with film for my black and white photography (I recently bought a mint M5).

 

Now I will wait for the dust to settle and see what happens. I love my M Monochrom and no longer feel pressure to sell it. My faith in Leica as a company has gone from high (I knew they frequently offered good-will beyond the warranty) to extremely high. I've been thinking about getting an M240 for some time now, and may go ahead and do it next year (in addition to my MM).

 

I don't see this as a "too little" or "too late" situation as many are complaining. It is a highly technical issue, that I'm sure was difficult to determine the cause and failure rates. If the failure rate was lower, simply replacing sensors would make sense. With failure rates as they are, I'm sure a more permanent fix will come. What I'm not sure of is whether the new glass or sensor will have the same magic as the old one.

[Rick]

M9 sales are ramping back up on eBay. Here is the link to the Advanced search of sold M9 cameras: Leica M9 | eBay

 

And, why not? Buy a used M9 or MM and shoot it until it shows signs of delimitation then, send it back to Leica and they'll put a brand new sensor in it for you. You basically are buying the last of a legendary CCD camera with a sweet built in warrantee. And, to think that 2-3 days ago you couldn't even sell the camera on eBay.

 

Rick

[jevidon]

Like many here, I have dreamed of owning a Leica for many years, and finally two-years-ago sold my beloved Harley-Davidson motorcycle and bought the M Monochrom, a few lenses and later on, an X Vario as a color complement.

 

I've never had sensor issues beyond the usual dust and dirt from use, and always had the sensor professionally cleaned, but as I kept reading more and more, I was getting nervous ................... My faith in Leica as a company has gone from high (I knew they frequently offered good-will beyond the warranty) to extremely high. I've been thinking about getting an M240 for some time now, and may go ahead and do it next year (in addition to my MM).

............................ If the failure rate was lower, simply replacing sensors would make sense. With failure rates as they are, I'm sure a more permanent fix will come. What I'm not sure of is whether the new glass or sensor will have the same magic as the old one.

 

My old Nikon DSLR had the white spot issue, but at the time I thought they were just stubborn spots that wouldn't clean up. It is interesting that both the Nikon and the M9, MM and M-E all have Kodak designed and sourced sensors. Given that this high performance sensor was used on many high end cameras before the advent of CMOS, I wonder how many other camera Brands have had the white spot phenomenon that we haven't heard about.

[k-hawinkler]

 

My old Nikon DSLR had the white spot issue, but at the time I thought they were just stubborn spots that wouldn't clean up. It is interesting that both the Nikon and the M9, MM and M-E all have Kodak designed and sourced sensors. Given that this high performance sensor was used on many high end cameras before the advent of CMOS, I wonder how many other camera Brands have had the white spot phenomenon that we haven't heard about.

 

 

Which Nikon?

[Jeff S]

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One thing, this is not Leica's forum. It has a good relationship with the factory, fortunately, but it is complete independent.

Senseless bashing is indeed not allowed, but criticism is welcome.

 

If anything, I think it's the independent thoughts of forum members (loyal users) that helped prompt Leica to ultimately do the right thing. (That and the obvious need to make a prudent business decision in the face of brand erosion). I don't think the policy just announced by Stefan Daniel would have happened nearly to the same degree, nor with the same speed, without the informed 'backlash' here (and I'm sure behind the scenes by some of the same folks).

 

This announcement should not only make people feel a bit better about the company, but also provide reinforcement for the value of the forum, which most often deals with bag trivia and other relatively inconsequential, but entertaining, matters.

 

Jeff

[IkarusJohn]

One thing, this is not Leica's forum. It has a good relationship with the factory, fortunately, but it is complete independent.

Senseless bashing is indeed not allowed, but criticism is welcome.

 

I agree that senseless bashing should not be allowed. Your implication that the Captain's post was senseless is unwarranted.

[Lenshacker]

 

My old Nikon DSLR had the white spot issue, but at the time I thought they were just stubborn spots that wouldn't clean up. It is interesting that both the Nikon and the M9, MM and M-E all have Kodak designed and sourced sensors. Given that this high performance sensor was used on many high end cameras before the advent of CMOS, I wonder how many other camera Brands have had the white spot phenomenon that we haven't heard about.

 

The original Nikon DSLR's (Nikon E2, Nikon E3) made in the 1990s had Fuji sensors, The Nikon D1 had Sony CCD Sensors, no digital SLR sold by Nikon used a Kodak sensor. The Kodak DCS series used Kodak made CCD's up through the DCS760. The full-frame Kodak DCS cameras (14n, SLR/n, SLR/c) used a CMOS sensor made by Fillfactory, that 14MPixel sensor used the same S8612 glass used in the KAF-18500 of the M9.

[IkarusJohn]

As an M9 and Monochrom user, I am relieved (and resisting checking my sensors until the problem becomes obvious). If either sensor fails, Leica will replace it (until the Truesense sensors are no longer available for reasons known only to Truesense - see M8 LCD failures).

 

I think Leica's response has been exactly what it should have done; and no, I do not think it is a reasonable position for a company to only do the right thing under threat of lawsuit or when internet chatter can no longer be ignored.

 

Captain has a point - the fact of the matter is that Leica's track record on M digitals has been patchy - M8 IR issues, LCD failures, and now CCD sensor issues. Coupled with Leica's failure to procure supply chain security with the M8 LCD, I remain nervous and feel somewhat exposed over my CCD based cameras. I have absolutely no doubt that this will impact on sales of the M-E (new) and secondhand values of M9s and Monochroms.

 

Why worry? My cameras work today no better or worse than they did last week, last month or last year, and if this problem eventuates Leica will fix the problem at no cost to me. They've looked after me incredibly well in the past (with one notable exception for which I do not blame anyone at Wetzlar). But that's not the entire picture is it? I bought this camera at a time when it was ground breaking (FF sensor in such a small and beautiful package) - call me foolish, but Leica offered this camera as a camera for life and charged a premium accordingly. Their history was consistent with this approach, and my expectation was that they would repair it for me, despite technological advances. I did not expect my M9 not to be surpassed, but I did expect Leica to have everything in place to repair it for as long as I want to use it. Had someone told me that the camera has an effective life (like all electronics) of, say 5 or 10 years (contrary to Leica's explicit advertising) beyond which Leica would not or could not repair it, it would certainly have affected my decision. Today, I received notice from Leica that my Elmar 135 is beyond repair. I'm sad about that, but it was made in 1960 so I can't be too disappointed. I know we've been over this, and I'm not seeking to rehash that issue; but do not underplay the fundamental problem that Leica has (again) had a very serious quality control, supply chain management issue. This is at odds with their quality premium price.

 

I will remain a loyal Leica owner, and I will buy their products in future, but that does no absolve them of criticism on this issue - it's not Leica bashing; it's a fact that there is a serious problem with the company (or has been). It is Stefan Daniel's department, and he is a man with huge credibility - the message though is, do less and do it properly. If you can't get the basics right, you're wasting effort and damaging your reputation in one of the most loyal customer groups I have ever come across.

 

There is a long term adage - you're only as good as your last screw-up.

 

Cheers

John

[Lenshacker]

I think most people underestimate the technical challenges to produce a Digital M-Mount camera. Ten years ago statements were made that a Digital M was impossible because of the short flange to film distance. Novel offset microlenses and use of thin IR absorbing cover glass was introduced to solve some of these issues. This means some compromises had to be made. The M8 IR cover glass is 0.5mm thick, and when used with an IR cut filter over the lens- "crisper" than the M9. The performance of the sensors in the M9 and M Monochrom amaze me, and I've been doing this stuff for a long time.

[jaapv]

I agree that senseless bashing should not be allowed. Your implication that the Captain's post was senseless is unwarranted.

The implication that Captain's post was senseless does not exist, I wonder how you read it into my post. This was just an explanation of Forum policy in reaction to the faulty supposition that this forum is owned by Leica and that criticism is not allowed, nothing else.

[fotografr]

Im really quite surprised at the amount of people thanking Leica and saying how wonderful this response is? The thread that raised this issue had been going for over a year. Those with sensor problems had started at least a year prior to that. Leica knew even before the 2013 thread started there was an issue and were replacing sensors. Then deliberately kept quiet on this issue for years to prevent a flood of people from noticing their sensors were flawed and discretely replacing those that did. It was only after the thread became so loud for so long that they had to reluctantly make an announcement now. Some people have already had to wait 6 months to have their cameras fixed. Its its reminiscent of the original M8 IR issue and asking reviewers to keep silent about and hope the users didnt notice it all over again. Now I love the brand I have 6 M lenses a couple of enlargers, binoculars, projectors (even a 110 format one!) But when it comes to digital camera bodies Leica simply lets you down and hopes you wont notice when these problems occur. Because Leica cannot be trusted on this front my digital experiences are limited to cropped sensors and M mount adapters to others brands.

 

Sorry but Leica does not deserve the pat on the back or praise for years of silence and slow response and people left without their very expensive cameras for months on end. I know I will cop alot of flack for saying this because your not allowed to say a bad word about them on their own forum, but all these feel good thankyou messages are not what Leica needs to hear to get its act together on its digital bodies. For a premier German brand this is appalling. A contrite apology years after the start and an offer to replace the sensors when thats what they have already been doing on the down low all this time hoping few others notice the problem is hardly worthy of any admiration.

 

Let's back up a bit here. Prior to 2007, I was sitting here with several high quality M lenses and wondering if I'd ever be able to use them. The business trend had already pushed me to go fully digital several years earlier and I had put together a full Canon system for use in my photography business. Then along came this amazing little camera, the M8, which allowed me to once again use my favored Leica lenses and preferred rangefinder method of shooting. Yes, there were initial problems. I went through three sudden deaths before getting an M8 that worked properly. And there was the IR filter issue. But I was, and remain, highly appreciative that Leica put the resources into developing a M camera that allowed me to use my favored lenses.

 

I'm currently shooting the Monochrom and loving every minute of it. I don't fault Leica for not having achieved perfection. Who has? I'm very grateful for the fact that they have come close, and continue to improve. Try looking at the good things Leica have done in the last few years instead of slamming them for a few technical glitches.

[AbbeyFoto]

I am not an avid reader of this forum, so as always I am late to the debate. I came having seen the new update by dpreview. On that point, I can note it was more helpful for dpreview to explain the difference between dust spots and "white" spots - which is somewhat inaccurate - rather than to be told if had been explained elsewhere. As to my reaction to the announcement. I welcome it, but nevertheless I am irritated I have yet another issue weakening my resolve and confidence. My two favourite Leica items - MM and 50 f2 Apo -- may have go to go for lengthy trips to Germany. Like so many football fans I see no reason for us to withhold our discontent.

[IkarusJohn]

The implication that Captain's post was senseless does not exist, I wonder how you read it into my post. This was just an explanation of Forum policy in reaction to the faulty supposition that this forum is owned by Leica and that criticism is not allowed, nothing else.

 

 

Oh, right then.

[IkarusJohn]

I looked ...

 

Actually, I noticed some odd lines, with white outlines. Oh, dear. Off to Wetzlar. Monochrom clear (but dirty).

[wattsy]

Try looking at the good things Leica have done in the last few years instead of slamming them for a few technical glitches.

 

I agree with the sentiment of this. I don't blame Leica for the various problems that have surfaced since 2006 – I think they have laudable photographic aims and have acted in good faith – but I am no longer so understanding about how they deal with these problems when they arise. I think the M8 was (and I guess still is) a great camera and there have been plenty of times when I've thought the M9 is really something quite special but I've become truly weary of having to send stuff back to Germany for repairs and I've simply started to drift away from Leica digital products (after more than a decade of pretty much using only Leica M equipment).

 

It's not just bodies that have been a problem but also brand new lenses requiring more than one trip to be properly adjusted. This is why I can't get excited at all about Leica's recent announcement. Okay, it is reassuring to know that they will stand behind the M9 and Monochrom for the foreseeable future but the company makes no promises about repair timescales and any solution that involves repairs taking longer than a month isn't really much of a solution to me and I remain relieved that I am no longer exposed to the possibility of sending more cameras back to Wetzlar. My Monochrom has already been gone for over a month, I have been given a tentative estimate of a repair in January. Frankly, I have almost forgotten that I own this camera and have largely moved on from it.

 

Personally, I won't buy another M9 type body unless it is absurdly cheap – it's just not worth the risk of having to deal with Leica's service department. I'm not sure if I want to buy a 240 or successor camera. There are some good deals around now – I have seen an authorised UK dealer selling the vanilla M240 for £3999 without any strings attached – but at some point you have to recognise the problems of the past and consider how much of a mug I must be if I continue to buy these products.

[ALD]

This sensor issue Jaap has been around for a while, and while I know that certain cameras in certain parts of the world were having the sensors replaced out of warranty, many were not. That is why I thought the response was slow. This decision by Leica should have been announced 1 year ago or more.

 

Still glad it has been announced.

 

So now I want to know on what warranty conditions I will be buying my next Leica. Are the sensors now officially guaranteed for life on all M cameras?

They should be theoretically because they are replacing film. But then again nobody provided free film. Hmmm......

 

When is the successor to the M240 due?

[jaapv]

I think it is unfair to blame the repair department. In general they manage to keep a decent turnaround time,usually, depending on the complexity of the repair, between two and three weeks.

 

However, the bottleneck is waiting for the parts.

Now I realise that Leica is still small fry and thus has little muscle with giant suppliers, but it must be possible to arrange with suppliers that these excessive waits do not occur, Otherwise modern stock management should be the answer. Not only manufacturing industries like the consultancies of Porsche could be helpful, companies that depend on distribution like for instance Lidl almost certainly have expertise to share.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ALD]

Ok perhaps I am being naive?

 

I complained a lot when the 50mm apo-summicron f2 had all those issues. Now I think that I was wrong.

 

Leica have produced in that lens an object that sits on the boundaries of what is physically possible. They needed to generate some income too. But they also came back with a reasonable offer to fix the affected lenses.

 

Is my understanding correct that the lens issue has been resolved? I really want one.

 

Perhaps the Leica m9 at the time, the m240 at the time, also really is at the forefront of what's physically possible from such a small manufacturer and small relative workforce and yet it's amazing what has been achieved.