Unlucky or poor quality control

[satureyes]

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So I will be brief with the back story.

 

I had a M 240 as new 18months ago.

2 trips to Germany to fix the IR coding window (one they didn't think there was a problem and then it went back for a part to be replaced)

 

Another trip (so this is now 3) to correct the RF which was out of whack

Now 6 months later, a paid shoot ruined because the RF was not aligned again so it went to Germain for the 4th time.

 

It was then agreed that I can get an actual replacement M rather than repaid my original one.

Amazing right - so yesterday I picked it up after confirmation it had been checked.

 

Take it hope, pop on my 50 lux (in chrome BTW) and shoot some pics.

ALL the shots taken with me using the RF our out of focus even though it showed as being 'in' focus.. unless of course I used the EVF. It wasn't massively scientific but I used a tripod, self timer and a calibration chart to make sure the target was the same in each image.

 

Mailed my results over to London tech guy - who agreed there could be a back focus issue. So.. this morning I was back at the Leica store.. where I was handed yet another camera from new. So 2 replacement is 2 days.

 

Guess what? Camera was a lot better BUT still not tack sharp when focussing using a 50mm 'lux UNLESS I used the EVF.

 

I tried the stores own camera - same issue. I also tried my 90mm, and even 28mm- all seemed to display similar traits.

 

So.. I ask you..

 

Is this 'within tolerance?'

 

It could be that all of my lenses are out.. but the laws of probability tend to make be believe otherwise.

 

Today - in London..at the Leica store I considered my options and whether I can stay with Leica if i can't be guaranteed an image to be bang in focus then I cannot afford to shoot and mess up again.

 

I honestly don't know what to do. It seems that to recreate the issue:

 

1) be at the minimal focal distance with whatever lens

2) shoot an image thats in focus using the RF

3) shoot an image in focus using the EVF.

4) while you are set up for the RF focus shoot, look through the EVF.. is the EVF view showing in focus then do the other way around.. focus using EVF and then see if the RF patches have become misaligned.

 

So.. any comments? Please try and indulge me- this is really giving me a headache.

[Manoleica]

So.. any comments? Please try and indulge me- this is really giving me a headache.

 

I'm sorry for your predicament, Leica need to set you up with a technician on a 1-2-1 basis to adjust & set up your lenses and camera & ensure everything is hunky dory... Overall it's a bloody shame that the QC is so poor.. I hope the new CEO is reading your Post...

p.s. Ask them to reimburse you for your time & out of pocket expenses. (1 exchange is bad, more is unacceptable)

 

(I had a similar experience with a Hyundai V8 Genesis..(top of the range) after 6months Hyundai gave up and Made it All Good...)

Edited March 6, 2015 by manoleica
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[satureyes]

So.. any comments? Please try and indulge me- this is really giving me a headache.

 

I'm sorry for your predicament, Leica need to set you up with a technician on a 1-2-1 basis to adjust & set up your lenses and camera & ensure everything is hunky dory... Overall it's a bloody shame that the QC is so poor.. I hope the new CEO is reading your Post...

p.s. Ask them to reimburse you for your time & out of pocket expenses. (1 exchange is bad, more is unacceptable)

 

(I had a similar experience with a Hyundai V8 Genesis..(top of the range) after 6months Hyundai gave up and Made it All Good...)

 

Well this setup can only happen in Germany. I was told today that if I sent in my 50 'lux then it would be 3 months turnaround. Still - even with their bigger factory.

 

This is not a model for pro-photographers. I have no issue using loan stock while my kit is being repaired but there is no loan stock.

 

My issue is that this is not how pro-photographers can work. We need support, a network that can react quickly and keep us running. Until this time Leica cannot be seen as a company for working professionals. It seems that a select few have access but the rest of us just have to get in line.

 

The only stuff that can be done here in the UK is 1st line support and sensor cleaning. As soon as a second opinion is needed then it has to be sent back on a plane to Germany.

 

I cannot work like this - I need my kit to be functioning. In the 18months of owning the M240 it's been in Germany around 6 months in total.

[Manoleica]

Get your money back..Look elsewhere....

Overall a bloody disgusting state of affairs from the Leica the famous Red Dot company...

[satureyes]

Get your money back..Look elsewhere....

Overall a bloody disgusting state of affairs from the Leica the famous Red Dot company...

 

Not so simple - I have a decent collection of M glass.. I just want it to work and I don't understand why I have had to now have 3 cameras that don't seem to be right?

 

What would Thorsten do?

[wda]

This is a very sad and frustrating story, Rick. I am sorry for you. Impossible to make any original suggestions other than engage at top level and represent a Professional Photographer's experience using a top of range new Leica camera. Where does top level start in London? Well there has to be one, Make your presence felt in the London Mayfair showroom and politely ask whether they are serious in wanting professional photographers as serious and lasting customers.

[Lenshacker]

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It sounds like your lenses should be sent in with the body to be calibrated to it. Digital is much less forgiving than film, which has depth and curvature. If all of the lenses are back focusing by the same amount, then they should adjust the camera to them specifically.

 

I have an M8, M9, and M Monochrom. They are all very slightly different from each other, and I've custom shimmed a couple of lenses to be perfect on each camera. None are "way off", or even out of spec. With the M Monochrom- it even depends on which color filter is used with some lenses, Orange and Red tend to shift the focus slightly back.

[satureyes]

This is a very sad and frustrating story, Rick. I am sorry for you. Impossible to make any original suggestions other than engage at top level and represent a Professional Photographer's experience using a top of range new Leica camera. Where does top level start in London? Well there has to be one, Make your presence felt in the London Mayfair showroom and politely ask whether they are serious in wanting professional photographers as serious and lasting customers.

 

I have a great relationship with Leica Mayfair. They have been exceedingly helpful and have pretty much supported my issues. My original M was sent to Germany - and less than a week later a replacement was authorised. I was very pleased about this.

 

I've been in contact with Dr Kaufmann who has been very efficient in organising the replacement - and told me to let him know if there's any delays in getting the replacement.

 

I am not sure I can take it much higher!

[satureyes]

Here's some of the test shots with the replacement camera last night - I've had another replacement since then.

 

So numerically - the first image is shot focussing using RF, then again with EVF and the 3rd and 4th are RF then EVF. All mounted on a tripod and using self-timer.

I used the larger 0 as the focus point.

 

Can you see the difference in the files? The first 2 shots are taken at pretty much minimal focus distance.

 

They are on WeTransfer...

 

http://we.tl/2m4A5MUV65

[TonyField]

It is sad that Leica does not cater to the professional photographer any longer - Leica caters to a different market.

 

I had problems with my M9 ... it was sent back to Leica (USA) three times before it was properly fixed. For the first year and a half, I only had the camera in my possession for 5 months. Fortunately the Camera Store in Calgary always provided me with a loaner camera while my M9 was out for service.

 

Of course you must have tested your M-240 with other 50mm Lux lenses to determine if it was a lens or camera issue ... and you have also had similar focus issues with your other lenses. I have personally found that I don't like to use the Leica with 50 or 90mm lenses on subjects that are closer than 2m (yes, it might be, in my case, an operator issue )

 

One issue I had on my M9 was that, at close focus distances, the focus would be perfect only if my eye was in the exact centre of the viewfinder. It it was not in the exact centre, the split image would diverge. This was traced to a very slight alignment issue in the range finder. After adjustment, I could move my eye-off centre with perfect focus (just like my many old film M cameras). Maybe this might be an issue with your M-240 ??

 

I wish you luck to have your issue resolved ....

[Lenshacker]

Image 4157: Looks like the "4" is in focus with the RF;

 

Image 4159: Looks like the "21" is in focus with the RF.

 

Does that mean "4mm" and "21mm" back-focus respectively?

 

How far away was the target?

 

These are all using 50mm lenses?

 

The travel distance that a lens makes in going from 0.9m to 0.904m (4mm back-focus) is ~0.015mm, assuming a 51.6mm nominal focal length.

 

For a 5m target (I'm guessing), 5m to 5.02m (20mm back-focus) the lens travels 0.02mm.

 

If this was one of my Sonnars or J-3's, I'd add a 0.02mm shim.

 

I made an excel spread sheet for shimming lenses.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Lenshacker

[satureyes]

Image 4157: Looks like the "4" is in focus with the RF;

 

Image 4159: Looks like the "21" is in focus with the RF.

 

Does that mean "4mm" and "21mm" back-focus respectively?

 

How far away was the target?

 

These are all using 50mm lenses?

 

Yes. All with the 50 lux.

 

The distance was the same. Pretty much the minimum focus distance the lens is capable of. Around 1m

 

The 0 was the target of the focus. The point here is not even to measure the amount of forward or back focus - the camera isnt lined up properly for that.

 

This was just to see when I focus with the RF and take a shot then without moving the camera use the EVF to see the difference.

 

To me this is night and day. Others tell me it's within tolerance.

[wattsy]

I owned a 50 Summilux ASPH for around 6 years and sent it back to Germany at least a couple of times to correct backfocussing in the close range (it was ok at mid-ranges). It was never corrected to my satisfaction and I ended up selling it. I later (a couple of years ago) bought another 50 Summilux and encountered the same problem – fine at most ranges but backfocussing at near minimum focus distance. I had this one sent back to Germany and again it came back without any marked improvement. At this point I decided to move on from the 50 Summilux because I assumed that it was probably a characteristic of this lens (perhaps a limitation of the floating element design) that it couldn't be perfect throughout the entire focussing range. I was recently tempted to buy another 50 Summilux when I saw it available new at quite a discount to the RRP but couldn't bring myself to do it knowing the hassle I'd had previously. A shame because it is, in so many respects, a wonderful lens. (Incidentally, the back focussing I'd experienced was with a whole range of camera bodies I had owned over the years plus one at Leica UK that was believed to be accurate).

[joeswe]

1) You write the MFD is 1m, is this a non-aspherical Lux 50?

 

2) Have you checked your eyesight recently? When doing this kind of test chart shooting you are not only taking the system of the mechanical rangefinder to its limits, but also your eyesight. I generally don't need glasses for photographing, but suffer from some astigmatism, that shows when I want to nail focus at close distance wide open with my Lux 50. I have to use glasses under these conditions.

[satureyes]

1) You write the MFD is 1m, is this a non-aspherical Lux 50?

 

2) Have you checked your eyesight recently? When doing this kind of test chart shooting you are not only taking the system of the mechanical rangefinder to its limits, but also your eyesight. I generally don't need glasses for photographing, but suffer from some astigmatism, that shows when I want to nail focus at close distance wide open with my Lux 50. I have to use glasses under these conditions.

 

I moved the tripod to as close as the MFD of the 50 lux. I don't remember off hand- and aka don't have it to hand but it was pretty much at the limit of the focus distance.

 

I have regular eye tests. However I was close enough that I can see when the focus in the RF is nailed or not. I understand the limits and limitation of rangefinders. I get it.

 

But.. Say I've focussed on something using the EVF (tripod mounted etc) then look through the RF. I can see the patches don't match. It's not even close.

[Lenshacker]

0.02mm is the nominal tolerance for shimming a lens from film camera days. You seem to be within this range, but would need the actual number for back-focus and distance.

 

It would be best to send the lenses in with the camera and have them zeroed. I go for 0.01mm on my lenses, mostly Sonnar formula which have field-curvature larger than what I shim them to. I can't focus any better than that using the RF with a 1.25x magnifier.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Lenshacker

[satureyes]

0.02mm is the nominal tolerance for shimming a lens from film camera days. You seem to be within this range, but would need the actual number for back-focus and distance.

 

It would be best to send the lenses in with the camera and have them zeroed. I go for 0.01mm on my lenses. I can't focus any better than that using the RF with a 1.25x magnifier.

 

So after trying 2 cameras from new - it's expected that a buyer takes their new camera out of the box from new then immediately send it back to the factory from where it was made? Really?

 

In 24 hours I've tested 2 brand new M cameras both displaying similar issues.

 

Now. Imagine you've just bought s Korean car from a dealer in London. You get the keys and then immediately hand them back so the car can be taken back to Korea to have the tyres aligned.

 

If this is such a requirement then the dealers need to offer this service not one factory in Germany.

[Lenshacker]

Yes, that is the appeal of a Rangefinder camera and lenses that make mechanical coupling for focus. For film- you would never know the difference.

 

With Digital, you are pixel-peeping well beyond errors that are covered by DOF. In the day, professional photographers would drop their lenses and cameras to a good repairman that would use a collimator to set the lenses in agreement with the camera. Having the ability to Pixel-Peep makes it easier to zero them, but you will need to send the camera and lenses in together.

 

Bill Pierce wrote an article in his "Nuts and Bolts", included statements regarding having lenses "zeroed" to bodies.

 

From Bill Pierce: "A Leica lens has a rangefinder cam that positions a feeler arm in the camera body. When these are properly matched, focusing with high-speed lenses wide open is dead on accurate. Remember, everything has tolerances. It's possible to get a mismatch that won't affect most images but will be less than optimal when you're shooting up close with a very high-speed lens wide open. If you suspect your rangefinder focusing is not spot on, I absolutely suggest you send body and lenses to a really good technician to have them matched up"

 

Nuts & Bolts - The Digital Journalist

 

I had to dig up the Cached version.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Lenshacker

[pico]

Rick, perhaps you should just quit the rangefinder camera and get some kind of Asian DSLR.

 

Your expectations for any optical rangefinder are unrealistic, way over the top silly. What client would ever view pixels 1:1?

.

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[satureyes]

Rick, perhaps you should just quit the rangefinder camera and get some kind of Asian DSLR.

 

Your expectations for any optical rangefinder are unrealistic, way over the top silly. What client would ever view pixels 1:1?

.

 

 

Sorry. Let's re trace a second.

I went and completes a shoot the other week. The camera I had was re calibrated and I had been using it for 5 months since its return.

 

There was no need to pixel peep. The images were all plainly out of focus. You could see it on a thumbnail.

 

The only shots which were in focus were the EVF shots.

 

Now to their credit and following a facebook chat and email with Dr Kaufmann Leica agreed to replace the camera with a brand new one.

 

The images were seen by the tech guy in London and he agreed too that this was way beyond the tolerances.

 

So I picked up the new camera Thursday. I did some tests that I attached earier and was disappointed to see the similar situation arising. Now it wasn't as bad but I was not pixel peeping. I was shooting the same shot with the EVF and the RF. The EVF shot is razor sharp.

 

Today I returned to the store and took yet another new camera out of the box and spent 2 hours testing with the tech.

 

The resolution was that I send the camera and lens back for matching or live with it because it's 'not that bad'

 

Well. See I do have an issue with this. I've had one shoot completely ruined and causing much embarrassment and this then shattered my confidence in the M as a tool that I can work with.

 

The replacement came fast and then I faced the disappointment again of it being not that great focus-wise.

 

 

I don't think it's pixel peeping to expect some text to be in focus when I shoot it - or a persons eyes to 'pop' it's just not there at the moment and I know it can be because I've seen it and had it on various loan cameras I've had.

 

I am not prepared to accept something as 'liveable' which could impact on y work and therefore my career and income.

 

 

Anyway. I've just had a Facebook messages from Dr Kaufmann who has informed me that there will be a solution by Monday.