Prints 60 x 40 cm: Which Leica does the best job?

[BjarniM]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I would strongly suggest film and scanner. Plustek 8100 or 8200 for color. $311 and $400 respectively at B&H.

 

Are you saying that a 350 USD scanner is so good that it knocks out a Leica sold for 8.000 USD?

[BjarniM]

Back to the start of the topic in this thread. There is one thing i don't understand.

 

The Monochrom was released in May 2012 and the M-P in August 2014, meaning the M-P is more than two years never, and you are saying that the Monochrom deliver better prints.

 

I know the Monochrome is optimized for bw, but my logic would say that a digital camera that is two years never is also two years ahead in technology. This just don't makes sense for me.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

 

 

I do agree. I've been shooting T-Max and Tri-X for 15 years now and i love the character of pictures taken with film, but - as i said - maybe this will cost me too much.

 

 

 

 

Could you please explain a bit more, and in details, what you mean when saying it's depending on my post processing skills? Which things are the most important for me to learn in Photoshop?

 

Thanks in advance.

Wow- that is an alarm bell. It is a steep and long learning curve to get proficient enough with Photoshop to enter on an ambitious project. I would advise you to stick with the medium you are familiar with, despite the cost.

As to the cost, last time I looked Denmark was an EU member. Why not send the films to be developed/enlarged to one of the excellent labs that are dotted all over Europe, at reasonable prices?

Edited February 9, 2015 by jaapv

[BerndReini]

I do not own a Monochrom yet, but I have used one quite a bit. I shoot Fuji Neopan 400 as my film of choice, and I actually enjoy the grain, but when I want a clean large file, the Monochrom is unbeatable. Here is one with the Monochrom at ISO 2,500.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[TonyField]

Could you please explain a bit more, and in details, what you mean when saying it's depending on my post processing skills? Which things are the most important for me to learn in Photoshop?

 

The most important skills in photoshop are those associated with image tonality and how it should be adusted within the image - and this is extremely important for B&W. A good understanding of image sharpening is also useful. To do this well, you must have a clear editing goal to produce quality results --- if you are fortunate, you will have a mind that understands how tones should be presented in a B&W image ... if not, you will have to learn the skills.

 

Tone control in a B&W image is really about contrast, burning and dodging. Do a google search for "burn and dodge" and you will find many useful descriptions such as:

 

 

One interesting tutorial specifically about B&W processing is

 

B&W Master Print

 

There are five or more ways to adjust basic B&W image tonality in photoshop. Some techniques are excellent to enhance local contrast and some to enhance shadow and highlight.

 

Some photoshop plugins can be used for b&w conversion, tonal, skin, and portrait enhancement

[Anusia]

Back to the start of the topic in this thread. There is one thing i don't understand.

 

The Monochrom was released in May 2012 and the M-P in August 2014, meaning the M-P is more than two years never, and you are saying that the Monochrom deliver better prints.

 

I know the Monochrome is optimized for bw, but my logic would say that a digital camera that is two years never is also two years ahead in technology. This just don't makes sense for me.

 

Due to the way the sensor works on the MM, it is technically impossible for any current Leica models to bettered it (the MM) for black and white images. If it did, it would simply be a matter of perception.

[Guest]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Wow- that is an alarm bell. It is a steep and long learning curve to get proficient enough with Photoshop to enter on an ambitious project. I would advise you to stick with the medium you are familiar with, despite the cost...

Much too alarmist! There is no reason these days to take on learning Photoshop — some people say, "Photoshop" is not a computer program, it's a way of life" — considering what one can do so much more easily with Lightroom combined with Silver Efex (SEFEX). The workflow can be very easy and fast if one uses the method shown in an excellent short video, whose method for this workflow I have recently adopted. Indeed, SEFEX can be a nightmare when you first start using it, if you try to search through the myriad of presets and sliders to get the combination that you want. The ideas in the video below provide a quick and effective method of using SEFEX:

 

Processing Black and White with SEP2 and Lightroom on Vimeo

 

The clip shows the method this photographer uses for XT-1 files and for producing a high-contrast look, but it can of course be tuned for the M-Monochrom (or the M9) and for a lower contrast look. For example, I use the Tri-X preset rather than the TMax 400 used in the clip — and I reduce the Silver Efex grain setting somewhat. The basic idea of flattening the original file that you put into SEFEX is a brilliant idea.

 

Generally, I use Silver Efex for any picture that I care about. SEFEX adds an element of "randomness" — maybe "contingency" is a better word for this — in the way processing and printing film does and, therefore, yields more interesting results. I have concluded that an important element in using SEFEX is the setting of the Fine and Midtone Structure.

 

Actually, before I bring a file into SEFEX, I try a few VSCO presents (mostly Tri-X 400-, Neopan 1600- or Neopan 400--), depending on the contrast range in the DNG file, to see the general look that I want when working with SEFEX. After the file has gone through SEFEX, I make some final adjustments, including any dodging or burning, in Lightroom. If you look at the video, the workflow can be very simple. Here are three examples of using this method with different tonalities and gradation:

 

 

 

M-Monochrom | DR Summicron-50 | ISO 320 | f.4.8 | 1/180 sec

 

 

 

 

M-Monochrom | Macro-Elmar-M 90mm | ISO 1250 | f/8 | 1/125 sec

 

 

 

 

M-Monochrom | DR Summicron-50 | ISO 320 | f/4.8 | 1/1000

Edited February 9, 2015 by not_a_hero

[250swb]

I know the Monochrome is optimized for bw, but my logic would say that a digital camera that is two years never is also two years ahead in technology. This just don't makes sense for me.

 

I still have a Monochrom and had for a while an M240, and the M240 is a little bit better than an M9 in terms of resolution. The Monochrom while still 18mp is however more like a 36mp sensor compared with the M240, the difference is that big. This is why the Monochrom is still on sale and why the M240 is not what may appear on the surface to be the obvious choice for a B&W photographer.

 

Steve

[MarkP]

I've had and sold an M9, but have a Monochrom and M240.

 

The Monochrom images are far superior to those of the M240 for resolution, high iso performance, and especially for tonal range and the different character of the noise (which is more filmic than that from sensors with a Bayer array).

 

If I was to keep only one of these cameras it would be the Monochrom.

 

There is no doubt that if you want to use a Leica digital camera for large B&W prints the Monochrom is the way to go.

[MarkP]

The most important skills in photoshop are those associated with image tonality and how it should be adusted within the image - and this is extremely important for B&W. A good understanding of image sharpening is also useful. To do this well, you must have a clear editing goal to produce quality results --- if you are fortunate, you will have a mind that understands how tones should be presented in a B&W image ... if not, you will have to learn the skills.

 

Tone control in a B&W image is really about contrast, burning and dodging. Do a google search for "burn and dodge" and you will find many useful descriptions such as:

 

 

One interesting tutorial specifically about B&W processing is

 

B&W Master Print

 

There are five or more ways to adjust basic B&W image tonality in photoshop. Some techniques are excellent to enhance local contrast and some to enhance shadow and highlight.

 

Some photoshop plugins can be used for b&w conversion, tonal, skin, and portrait enhancement

 

I so agree with this. It is not just the superior global control over the image but Photoshop's versatility with local image adjustment.

[batmobile]

OK, a major turn of events!

 

It can be too late to learn digital processing skills and by that I mean if the delivery date on the project is too soon to figure it all out and produce quality prints.

 

If there is anything less than quite a few months and lots of time each day, I would produce negatives and wet print. Trying to figure out all the 'digital stuff' will get in the way of producing good photos IMHO. Stick with what you know, start learning digital imaging as you go and use that perhaps for the next project.

[BerndReini]

You can make some really great prints from the Monochrom using only the SilverFX plug in, which is really easy to use. You just look at the thumbnail versions of your image and click on the one you like.

 

Of course you can get much fancier from there. I am very proficient in Lightroom and Photoshop, and have gone through many years of printing for exhibitions and color management. All of this helps in turning a good photograph into a great print, but a good exposure from the Monochrom is much easier made into a large print than a film negative.

 

Just save the original DNG files and you can always come back to it.

[dewittehd]

The reason that film is so expensive is because i live in an isolated country far away from bigger countries, which brings the total cost to around 120 USD just for a single roll of Tri-X when it's developed and scanned, so you can imagine the total cost for a book project, where around 100 pictures will be published.

 

.

 

I don't understand..... do you mean 100 pictures per book? But even then (provided you are a good photographer, which I assume) this would mean only 3 rolls of Tri-X, or a cost of 360$, insignificant in relation to the cost of a new camera.

Second question (and again the 100 pictures): who would do the printing? I think if you are looking at professional printing services then the question becomes more of which dpi the printing service wants, and less of which camera.

Take care,

Jean

[fore]

I still have a Monochrom and had for a while an M240, and the M240 is a little bit better than an M9 in terms of resolution. The Monochrom while still 18mp is however more like a 36mp sensor compared with the M240, the difference is that big. This is why the Monochrom is still on sale and why the M240 is not what may appear on the surface to be the obvious choice for a B&W photographer.

 

Steve

 

I've read this numerous times Steve, but leaves me wondering what can be improved upon with the upcoming cmos MM.

 

And, why run MM files thru SEFEX anyway? It's already b&w and you can just use LR to make adjustments...

[wattsy]

I don't understand..... do you mean 100 pictures per book? But even then (provided you are a good photographer, which I assume) this would mean only 3 rolls of Tri-X.

 

I don't know about you but it'd take me rather more than 3 rolls of film to produce 100 publishable photos.

[Antonio Russell]

I too would choose a film Leica and traditional darkroom prints.

[pico]

The most important skills in photoshop are those associated with image tonality and how it should be adusted within the image [...]

 

Tone control in a B&W image is really about contrast, burning and dodging.

 

In the decades I've used Photoshop, I've never used the burn and dodge tools. Masks, yes, curves and channels, yes.

[pgk]

Which digital Leica will deliver the best results for my project, printed in black and white?

Any or none. Its not about the camera, its about your ability with the medium you are working with and using an unfamiliar method (ie digital) is a recipe for creating a mess as you will learn as you work through the project and your files will constantly changing. Sure digital is superficially easy, but immediately delivering 'high quality', publishable B&W prints from an unfamiliar digital system is highly unlikely. Stick with what you know - film - for the project even if its expensive. And FWIW I started with Photoshop 4 (professionally) ,and am still not fully conversant with the latest version......

[tobey bilek]

Are you saying that a 350 USD scanner is so good that it knocks out a Leica sold for 8.000 USD?

 

No but you have to consider print size.

at some point , film is as good as digital. Someone with monochrome could answer.

 

I also thought there were some budget considerations. If there are none and there is no way to directly compare film and digital at your size, monochrome is the best choice

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[BjarniM]

As to the cost, last time I looked Denmark was an EU member. Why not send the films to be developed/enlarged to one of the excellent labs that are dotted all over Europe, at reasonable prices?

 

I live in the Faroe Islands, which couldn’t be selected in the list of countries when i made my profile on this forum. If i should send the films to other countries i’m bound to send by airmail, where X-ray scanners could damage undeveloped films.

 

Stick with what you know, start learning digital imaging as you go and use that perhaps for the next project.

 

Digital images isn’t new to me, neither is Photoshop. I’ve been shooting digital for 6 years - first Canon and the last two years Fuji. The question from the start was which digital Leica would be the best for my project, if i made the switch from my trusted M6 to a brand new digital Leica.

 

I don't understand..... do you mean 100 pictures per book? But even then (provided you are a good photographer, which I assume) this would mean only 3 rolls of Tri-X, or a cost of 360$, insignificant in relation to the cost of a new camera.

 

I don’t know if i’m such a terrible photographer, but to be on the safe side i would imagine half a roll (18 pictures) of every person, which, including discount from the lab, gives a total price around 4500 USD.

 

Second question (and again the 100 pictures): who would do the printing?

 

The same lab who should be developing the films.