Leica M Edition 60 - Your opinion

[skuromis]

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Rephrase that from the perspective of a dSLR user looking at an M camera. No AF, no focus and framing confirmation through the lens, no long teles, focus shifts, macro or ultra wides ... You get the picture.

 

And it cost how much?

19.5 CHF (incl. one lens).

I don't think the comparison holds up. Lack of AF, yes, but you get tools in replacement to focus manually (try focusing manually with an DSLR ex factory). All other disadvantages come from the choice of camera type.

But strap lugs are existing in other M models, but M60. And with the limitation of 600 pcs coming in a "nice" case, that is clearly a limited edition aiming at collectors. In my eyes, this camera isn't meant for daily use.

[IkarusJohn]

I'm not sure why you're trying to be objective. My point was not that dSLR owners are right or wrong in their dismissive comments about Leica - just that perceptions are different, depending on what you own.

 

I didn't pay Swiss Franks for my M60.

 

I can tell you that the margin over list price of the lens and camera barely covers the stainless tooling - it was well below the cost you cite.

 

Lugs? Well, that would imply a strap - it comes with a strap ...

[skuromis]

I'm not sure why you're trying to be objective. My point was not that dSLR owners are right or wrong in their dismissive comments about Leica - just that perceptions are different, depending on what you own.

 

I didn't pay Swiss Franks for my M60.

 

I can tell you that the margin over list price of the lens and camera barely covers the stainless tooling - it was well below the cost you cite.

 

Lugs? Well, that would imply a strap - it comes with a strap ...

 

Not sure, if we understand each other correctly. Just trying to express my view that the M60 is rather a collector model and not meant to be an every day camera. And I tried to say, why I think so. You are right though, I should use the term body lugs.

I haven't meant to judge on DSLR, or good or bad.

I also did not intend to say, it would be too expensive, but it is more expensive (~6000 CHF) than a normal M (240) with the normal Lux included, at least here in CH.

 

And sorry, it meant to be 19.5k CHF for the set (missed the k initially).

[IkarusJohn]

I understand.

 

My point was purely that I don't agree that the premium (over list for the M(240) and 35mm Summilux) is that bad for the stainless steel construction and the stripped back removal of the LCD and all the associated problems that go with it (JPegs, white balance, etc). I paid less than the USD 18,500 list price.

 

It always costs a lot to remove things from a production model, and compared to luxury models (titanium coatings of effectively the same camera or Hermes leather) I don't agree that this camera is too over priced to be usedto take pictures. Quite the reverse - I think it is for taking pictures. Strap lugs don't bother me in the least. If I want a strap (I do with my other cameras) then I'll attach the half case. Or I might experiment using it naked, without the case. It's different to what I'm used to, but not the end of the World.

 

My point is that looking from M9-P and Monochrom ownership, (along with a fine collection of Leica glass) this camera does not look overpriced or stupid at all - no more so than what I own already, from the perspective of a dSLR owner. Not sure about you, but when a 5DII owner sidles up to me and says "nice retro camera" I don't tell him what it all costs :-)

[KM-25]

Beautiful it might be, but any of my clients would think I was crazy if I turned up on a job with one. One of the great things about digital was that we could throw away our Polaroid cameras! With the M-60 you'd have to bring along some way of showing the client work-in-progress - so you'd end up tethering the camera or having to do downloads to a tablet! It's kind of a nice idea, but really doesn't do it for any one who earns money with a camera.

 

My clients trust me completely, that is why I often get to use film. I'd carry a small Gossen meter and go out and make great photographs with it, end of story. I love the design too, but I am partial to Audi's design since I own a gorgeous 2012 S4...

[IkarusJohn]

2013 A4 Avant Quattro, S-Line :-)

[ynp]

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I may have caved in and bought one if not for the lack of lugs.. I love my cameras naked without a case.

 

After the lug disengagement disaster on my M9 Titan I am very cautious about lug design and the only reason I skipped this 60 is the lack of traditional solid lugs.

[colonel]

I just wanted to say that I actually say the M60 in the flesh in Selfridges in London

Its very very very very nice

Really beautiful. the strap lugs wouldn't bother me as I never use one but i can see it restricting its audience as many people do.

 

If it had a screen I might serious consider it ........

 

rgds

[jmr]

Went for a short walk recently with the Leica 60.

 

35 Summilux @ F/1.4

 

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[Exodies]

Did you say "I don't remember taking that!" like we did in the days before the LCD?

[jmr]

Not quite—but the gap between taking the picture and seeing it, does alter the whole experience somewhat, for the better in my opinion.

[danhefner]

While M Edition 60 is clearly marketed with collectors in mind (why else the 001-600 serial numbers and those crazy white gloves??), it's also marketed as a usable camera (and it comes with one of Leica's most celebrated M lenses). Having generated all this "buzz" and controversy among its customer base, I hope Leica is taking it all in and making decisions for future product design (i.e., whether to release something like the Edition 60 as a standard-edition option in the M line).

 

If Leica wants to carry this concept forward, I'll offer my 2-cents worth for what's really wrong with this camera. It isn't by comparing the Edition 60 camera to other digital cameras or even other digital Ms (which have the LCD screen) that's the issue. That comparison addresses the concept behind the Edition 60. What I suggest might be a design flaw is apparent when comparing the Edition 60 to other Leica M cameras lacking LCD screens (the ones requiring film). The Edition 60 includes shutter speed settings that allow for very slow shutter speed (including "B") but the Edition 60 offers less convenience in using such slow speeds than do Leica's film M cameras. As far as I can tell, the Edition 60 ncludes no interface for a timed/delayed shutter release, nor does its release button contain any threads for a soft release. This essentially renders the slow shutter speeds either useless or much less useful than for film cameras (which the Edition 60 seeks to emulate). For slow shutter work, with the M 60, one has to use a finger to depress the shutter, which can introduce some amount of shake to the camera, which could otherwise be reduced to the same extent as with a film M camera if using a soft release cable were possible or otherwise with a timed-delay shutter release.

 

So, I hope that if Leica does ultimately go forward with something like the M Edition 60 as a standard edition product, that Leica considers its use in low light, where longer exposures are required, and design the camera to be at least as amenable to such as its film M cameras.

 

I also would hope that Leica would consider a replacement of the shutter release button to include threads for a soft release and/or update the firmware for the M Edition 60 to have some way to enable a timed-release for the lucky 600 who happen to have acquired one of these Edition 60s.

[Ecaton]

Mine is on its way and will arrive next week.

[rivi1969]

Yes, it is a beautiful camera, but I just saw the video with a guy using white gloves unboxing the M60 and made me laugh... Give me a break, it is a digital camera, not a Guarneri violin!

[Winedemonium]

Have now purchased my M60. I will have it later in the week.

 

First and foremost for me, this is an emotional purchase, rather than a rational one. More people in the poll think the offering is mad than were at the other end of the poll waiting one. That makes sense to me.

 

It is not one for ostentation. I like that the styling is minimalist, discrete, and has no 'red dot'.

 

Neither, for me, will this be a shelf queen - some collector's item to baby and put on display in a cabinet. It will live in my dry box, ready to be used, and taken out and used like the others.

 

I am toying with the idea of a more solid camera case for it, as I'm not convinced by the one it comes with.

 

I am not worried about the camera's limitations. It is the right sort of limitation for its classic rangefinder function.

 

I'm not against all the additions that went into the M240. I think they were good, and will broaden that camera's appeal - video, live view, EVF, improved shutter, improved user interface, weather sealing - all good in my view. When I know I'm going to go out with a 21mm lens or a 75mm+ lens, or have some other situation where live view might be useful, then I will take my M-P 240.

 

If I want to go for a stroll and take pictures, or enjoy a more 'nostalgic' real rangefinder sort of experience, then I will take my M-A or (I imagine) the M60.

 

If I want tilt-shift, fast action, telephoto, macro, high resolution, photographing in the pouring rain, taking snaps in the swimming pool, sending a picture to someone of something that just happened or that I saw......... I will use a variety of other cameras.

 

The M60 will capture photos no different to my M-P240. Some will be over or under exposed, mis-focused, mis-framed, in ways that I can avoid with my M-P240. If that was going to be a problem I'd take the M-P240.

 

And maybe sometimes I will feel less distracted. Maybe the marketing idea that Leica present with this camera - minimising photography to aperture, shutter speed, focus, and ISO, does lead to a higher chance of capturing that 'decisive moment'. On the other hand, maybe that is just a fantasy designed to seduce us to spend a lot of money on a simple camera.

 

I don't mind which. I know when I use this camera I will be using something very special. It appeals to me. I will get pleasure from using it. And, not being into bling, I like that it is fairly discrete in styling. I won't feel conspicuous.

 

And though I think today that I might like to always have the camera - long after its innards cease to work or become irrevocably obsolete and unusable - and the camera can then take its place as a somewhat worn but cherished display item - an early 20th century piece of design aestheticism - the lens will still be usable, serviceable, and the set, though it will have depreciated in value, would have a saleable value. Maybe less money lost on that than most of the other things I use.

 

Finally, some thoughts on a "production" M60 -

The basic design idea is a good one. One of the great appeals of Leica rangefinder photography is that once you have used the system a lot, things like shutter speed selection, aperture control, and focusing and framing become second nature, rather quick. I do think there is something in the idea of a digital camera stripped to the core of the Leica M idea.

 

But it needn't be over-stripped of some things mentioned in this really useful (if somewhat divisive!) thread. You could, actually, put ALL of the M-P240 functionality into an M60 derivative. For example -

- as others have said, have certain preferences coded into the SD card for the camera to read. That could be managed on an application on an external device

- include wifi output to a device like a smartphone. This might seem totally counter to the ideal of this camera - to remove the screen, but allow the use of a smartphone as a rear screen instead. But this sort of technology already exists in other cameras. It would allow the M60 to have all the extra functionality you want, when you decide you want it, but allow some users to go "pure", or allow you to use it as intended when you don't need that functionality.

- not everyone has picked up on the fact that the M60 does actually have a function button (replaces the video button). This, in conjunction with wifi and an external device, could allow for the future M60 to communicate.

- production model should be classic Leica aesthetic, with strap lugs, frameline selector, (I'd bring back the self timer), and threaded shutter release, etc. Chrome. Paint. Vulcanite, etc.

 

Anyway, just ideas. I'm over-thinking this a bit maybe.

 

I'm looking forward to going out and shooting with the M60 of today.

[Winedemonium]

*21st century

[batmobile]

It does not appeal to me as a user camera (I set my cameras not to display shot files on the LCD), but I think it is a beautiful piece of design. IMHO, that is as good a reason as function to make anything, if that is the basis upon which it is enjoyed. We don't take photos because they are 'useful'...

 

I see quite a bit of compromise in functionality (menus) but others see compromises they are willing to accept in order to enjoy a very good level of functionality from something so beautiful. Wonderful.

 

Its not for me, but I'm glad Leica is still pushing the boundaries of operational simplicity.

[IkarusJohn]

I see quite a bit of compromise in functionality (menus) but others see compromises they are willing to accept in order to enjoy a very good level of functionality from something so beautiful. Wonderful.

 

 

 

Im intrigued. What compromise do you see in menus? I'm not sure I understand what menus you want. The biggest compromise I see is not having a self timer or threaded shutter release. In practical terms, that means the camera is really only for hand held images and no self portraits.

 

There's nothing I need a menu for ...

[tom0511]

As beautiful as the camera is, and as much I can understand that some people love the simplicity to work without display, I could not imagine to do so.

 

I think to get the best IQ the image exposure should be nailed if possible. The exposure metering of the Leica M just does not cut it in this way IMO.

 

I often look at the histogram and dial in compensation between 0 up to -1, depending on the results. Sometimes I would just use manual and use the histogram to set my values for f-stop and exp. I found it easier to nail exposure with my film M.

I use the standard metering because I dont want any delay when taking an image.

So for me the histogram is important when using the M.

 

I assume if I was using the M60 I would end up with many images being slightly underexposed (to make sure to not overepose) - I would have to compensate in raw developping, leading to less dynamic range, eventually worse color and more noise in some cases.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[IkarusJohn]

It's really no different to film, except that digital is more tolerant of exposure errors than (slide) film.