pico Posted January 28, 2014 Share #41 Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) OMG. That would be complex. Carrying/wearing yet another device in order to set important settings. Now two power-dependent devices need to be charged instead of one. And they need to communicate. And they need to carried together. For the same of eliminating ... buttons? I'm sure very many of us already carry a smart phone. They communicate with the camera directly, without a network. To me, it's a no brainer. And it would not only minimize buttons, but eliminate the LCD, or have an overlay in the viewfinder for a histogram (if desired). Edited January 28, 2014 by pico 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 Hi pico, Take a look here A digital M6. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
zlatkob Posted January 28, 2014 Share #42 Posted January 28, 2014 I'm sure very many of us already carry a smart phone. They communicate with the camera directly, without a network. To me, it's a no brainer. And it would not only minimize buttons, but eliminate the LCD, or have an overlay in the viewfinder for a histogram (if desired). It wouldn't eliminate the LCD. It would just borrow an LCD from another device. And it would only function when the other device was working and able to communicate. You have to locate the other device, turn it on, turn on the appropriate app, etc. If you've ever misplaced your smart phone or let the battery run low, you know how speedy this can be. If someone else is using your smartphone to make a call or play a game or check email, you know how speedy this can be. If your smartphone gets dropped or stolen, you're now stuck with certain camera settings until you can connect to a computer or get a new phone. Spreading functions over multiple devices is the antithesis of simplicity. I much prefer a camera that is self-sufficient in this respect — one that can control its own functions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bla Posted January 28, 2014 Share #43 Posted January 28, 2014 The monitor is one of the best things to come to photography since photography was invented. A digital camera without a monitor would be a strangely disabled device. I would not buy one. And one can turn off the monitor on any digital cameral. Only ISO and RAW or JPG can be chosen? Without a monitor, one would need a mechanical control to choose RAW or JPG — a control that was not present on the M6. How would you set a manual white balance? Check a histogram? Turn off lens detection? Choose black & white jpegs? Adjust the auto power off time? Choose sRGB vs. Adobe RGB? Reset the frame counter? Set the time & date? Format the SD card? I said RAW only. Where is the need for JPG? White balance => not needed, Lens detection (why switch that off?) sRGB vs AdobeRGB => not needed, Black&White not needed. Reset frame counter=> not possible. that way you don't have to use crazy tools to get the number of exposures. Why would you want to reset anyway? Time and date is a good point though, but I guess one could find a solution easily. And I doubt you're setting the time every other day. Format SD card => use your PC obviously. And about the histogram which many seem to need so dearly: I'd rather have a good working exposure meter in camera (using the RAW signal) That'd be much much better than JPG histograms (who needs those?) or the white dot reflectance light meter. There is no need for photography to have all those options and information when taking photos. It might be useful sometimes, but I can live without it perfectly fine in most of the cases. So why have it? Greetings, Arvid Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 28, 2014 Share #44 Posted January 28, 2014 It wouldn't eliminate the LCD. It would just borrow an LCD from another device. And a much larger and superior LCD. And it would only function when the other device was working and able to communicate. If the device cannot communicate then you would have known it earlier during ordinary use. You could still use the camera at the last settings. I'd rather get a new iPhone or equivalent than a replacement camera. You have to locate the other device, turn it on, turn on the appropriate app, etc. Is it so hard to find one's phone? Mine is always on, in instant recall standby. The app is always loaded, too. If you've ever misplaced your smart phone or let the battery run low, you know how speedy this can be. I never misplace my phone, and keeping it charged is elementary. Spreading functions over multiple devices is the antithesis of simplicity. I much prefer a camera that is self-sufficient in this respect — one that can control its own functions. I do it and it works. BTW, a smartphone is not necessary. I have a key fob that can program much of my car. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iedei Posted January 28, 2014 Share #45 Posted January 28, 2014 you don't like the screen? just put a Leica badge on this sucker----then let her rip all over that horrible, blasphemous, modern screen! enjoy the good times! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/221045-a-digital-m6/?do=findComment&comment=2520485'>More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted January 28, 2014 Share #46 Posted January 28, 2014 I said RAW only. Where is the need for JPG? White balance => not needed, Lens detection (why switch that off?) sRGB vs AdobeRGB => not needed, Black&White not needed. Reset frame counter=> not possible. that way you don't have to use crazy tools to get the number of exposures. Why would you want to reset anyway? Time and date is a good point though, but I guess one could find a solution easily. And I doubt you're setting the time every other day. Format SD card => use your PC obviously. And about the histogram which many seem to need so dearly: I'd rather have a good working exposure meter in camera (using the RAW signal) That'd be much much better than JPG histograms (who needs those?) or the white dot reflectance light meter. There is no need for photography to have all those options and information when taking photos. It might be useful sometimes, but I can live without it perfectly fine in most of the cases. So why have it? Greetings, Arvid The OP wrote "Only ISO and RAW or JPG can be chosen." This illustrates how one person's "crazy tools" are another person's basic settings. How does a camera manufacturer predict what users will deem crazy vs. basic? You just bought a new SD card, or borrowed one, or forgot to format it on your PC. The PC is always with you and available to format an SD card? Let's hope the PC will do it correctly, the same as the camera would do. Kind of sucks that the camera can't just do it. You just want a "good working exposure meter" — The histogram is the very best in camera exposure meter ever invented. "It might be useful sometimes, but I can live without it perfectly fine in most of the cases. So why have it?" — You've answered your own question. "In most cases" means there are times and cases when additional options and information are essential. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted January 28, 2014 Share #47 Posted January 28, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Is it so hard to find one's phone? Mine is always on, in instant recall standby. The app is always loaded, too..... I never misplace my phone, and keeping it charged is elementary. You must be a very superior human to always have the phone on hand wherever you are, charged, powered on, and with the camera app open and ready to change settings. If camera makers designed cameras for you, the rest of us would be lost But is moving basic functions to another device — a smart phone — consistent with the Leica philosophy? Would HCB et al. have been pleased to have to carry and start up another device just to change settings that every other camera can change independently? Doesn't this quest for film-like simplicity just lead to a needlessly cumbersome digital working method? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iedei Posted January 28, 2014 Share #48 Posted January 28, 2014 You must be a very superior human to always have the phone on hand wherever you are, charged, powered on, and with the camera app open and ready to change settings. If camera makers designed cameras for you, the rest of us would be lost uhh...most of us don't find that very hard to do----so most likely you've got issues, mate! lol 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 28, 2014 Share #49 Posted January 28, 2014 Fot those who think that a displayless digital camera is something unheard of which is perfectly unusable and with absolutely no chance in the market: google for Sony DSC-QX10 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 28, 2014 Share #50 Posted January 28, 2014 You must be a very superior human to always have the phone on hand wherever you are, charged, powered on, and with the camera app open and ready to change settings. If camera makers designed cameras for you, the rest of us would be lost But is moving basic functions to another device — a smart phone — consistent with the Leica philosophy? Would HCB et al. have been pleased to have to carry and start up another device just to change settings that every other camera can change independently? Doesn't this quest for film-like simplicity just lead to a needlessly cumbersome digital working method? How often do you change your settings, anyway, and what kind of setting did HCB need to change frequently during his outings,which have not been allowed by the TO? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bla Posted January 28, 2014 Share #51 Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) I think we should discuss a little less aggressive. Sorry, if I offended someone. I do not think that your way of using a camera is wrong or anything. It just differs from mine, which is more similar to shooting with a film camera. I set the aperture, check the metering and set the exposure time (or use aperture priority), adjust focus, choose my image composition and then take the photo. And for that I don't need a menu, a screen and no further settings. And it works surprisingly good. So all I'm saying is that it'd be awesome if I had a camera concentrating on those things, giving me a no nonsense tool to do exactly that and no fussing around while photographing. I like to do the fumbling and adjusting and setting in the evening on my PC, which is and will always be much more capable of doing so than the mediocre "computer" used in a camera. Greetings, Arvid Fot those who think that a displayless digital camera is something unheard of which is perfectly unusable and with absolutely no chance in the market: google for Sony DSC-QX10Yeah, but that's a not a camera to compare to a digital M. And the smartphone idea, albeit not bad, is not what I was going for. Don't know about the OP. Edited January 28, 2014 by bla Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 28, 2014 Share #52 Posted January 28, 2014 You must be a very superior human to always have the phone on hand wherever you are, charged, powered on, and with the camera app open and ready to change settings. Not superior, but good at developing habits. If camera makers designed cameras for you, the rest of us would be lost Fear not. I am also good at finding people. But is moving basic functions to another device — a smart phone — consistent with the Leica philosophy? Would HCB et al. have been pleased to have to carry and start up another device just to change settings that every other camera can change independently? Doesn't this quest for film-like simplicity just lead to a needlessly cumbersome digital working method? Is a digital M camera really consistent with Leica's philosophy? It seems to me that never incorporating a lot of the digital tech in the camera, but in a less expensive and easily replaceable appliance is smart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted January 28, 2014 Share #53 Posted January 28, 2014 You must be a very superior human to yadayadayada Just come out and say it, you don't like the idea. Don't try to justify it with these, frankly, silly theoretical situations as i makes you look inept. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted January 28, 2014 Share #54 Posted January 28, 2014 Just come out and say it, you don't like the idea. Don't try to justify it with these, frankly, silly theoretical situations as i makes you look inept. I did say it. With emphasis on practical considerations. Nothing theoretical about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted January 28, 2014 Share #55 Posted January 28, 2014 Fot those who think that a displayless digital camera is something unheard of which is perfectly unusable and with absolutely no chance in the market: google for Sony DSC-QX10 Well, that Sony is extremely un-Leica-like and un-film-like. It may be a lot of fun otherwise. My very first digital camera was displayless. Not having a display was a cost-cutting effort and a glaring fault. I couldn't wait to replace it with a digital camera that had a display. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_S Posted January 28, 2014 Share #56 Posted January 28, 2014 I would like to see Leica eliminate the large glass back panel, add a tiny display somewhere less vulnerable for a histogram, and allow wireless transfer/tethering to a mobile device for upload & review when desired. MP proportions would be ideal preferably with a stepped end to the viewfinder side of the top plate so it can keep the nice aesthetics of the M9/Monochrom/ME's solution for losing the rewind knob. My Monochrom is wonderful, but for rough stuff I'll be taking my film M body. Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted January 28, 2014 Share #57 Posted January 28, 2014 I did say it. With emphasis on practical considerations. Nothing theoretical about it. No, you're bolstering your biased assertion with theoretical hyperboles. That's quite a difference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted January 28, 2014 Share #58 Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) uhh...most of us don't find that very hard to do----so most likely you've got issues, mate! lol When I'm working, my phone does not come out — which is sort of like working with a film camera (it doesn't require a phone to change settings). And the ringer is turned off. I frankly don't see the point of a digital camera that works exactly like an M6. I can imagine the conversation ... Photographer A: "Look, my new digital Leica works exactly like an M6! No monitor. Very limited buttons. No distractions." Photographer B: "Wow, that's cool." Photographer A: "Now, let me see, how do I change the power-off time? And I want to change from color to black & white. My editor needs b+w jpegs today. Oh, and the time & date are off since my last trip. No problem, I'll just get my smart phone. It's in my bag ... or in the car ... I'll be right back." Photographer B: "That's exactly how an M6 works???" The point is, the digital camera is a different device and has its own considerations. If your camera suddenly starts shooting 100% black frames instead of pictures, how will you know without a monitor? Edited January 28, 2014 by zlatkob Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted January 28, 2014 Share #59 Posted January 28, 2014 No, you're bolstering your biased assertion with theoretical hyperboles. That's quite a difference. You wrote, "I agree that it's outlandish to fully retreat to things as they were, ...." I agree, it is outlandish. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted January 28, 2014 Share #60 Posted January 28, 2014 The point is, No, it's not. Not in this thread. the point was to have a digital M6. Not a smart phone with a lens. Someone with a little bit of skill don't need to chimp ever single photo. If you're using your camera on assignment, may I suggest you don't consider this camera? Or better still, use a camera that most photographers on assignment where you need to work fast and have all the bells and whistles; a digital SLR? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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