A good buy or no?

[ryan1938]

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I hate these kinds of threads... but, I need some encouragement... or to be beaten...

 

Last week, I ordered a Sony A7 to compliment my M6 and my modest collection of Leica glass. It should be here on Friday.

 

The thing is, I just stumbled upon a mint 240 with 2000 shutter fires for $6,500. I can't afford it, but it's the camera I really, really want.

 

What should I do?

[South Bird]

Get the M. You will never be satisfied with something you don't really want. The M is a great camera and you can shoot greater than 28 mm lenses on it which may be a little sketchy on the A7r.

[StephenPatterson]

I can't afford it, but it's the camera I really, really want.

 

What should I do?

 

Why don't you get an M9? I do think the M240 is a very worth successor but there is absolutely nothing wrong with the M9 and it's a wonderful camera to accompany an M6. Also plays nice with wide and ultra wide Leica lenses, which is not always the case with the Sony. Shoot the M9, print A3 and larger and be happy that you stayed within your budget. Later when M240 prices fall further (which they will) you can always upgrade.

[suneohair]

I'd agree with Stephen. Some monster M9 deals out there.

 

Check FM.

[tthorne]

I use a pair of M 240's for work and have an MM as my personal camera. I ended up getting an A7R as a (please excuse me for this) beater camera.

 

The A7R really is a cool camera, and the files are fantastic, but it could never replace my 240's. Thankfully, it works really well with the 21mm SEM I shoot with, and I plan on getting the wide zoom for it when it becomes available, but for 35mm and 50mm, nothing beats the rangefinder for me. I don't think everyone will agree, so I have to admit this is just my personal opinion. I also may try the 90mm on the Sony, but have yet to do so.

 

In my experience, any time I have purchased anything less than exactly what I wanted, I always ended up spending more, because I would buy something else and still pine for the one I wanted until I broke down and bought that also.

 

Oh, and for the people telling you to look at an M9, I would second that. The M 240 is sweet, but it takes nothing away from the M9 and it's CCD. In fact, I may just buy an M9 since the prices are coming down so much. Is there a specific reason, like Live View or the EVF or higher ISO, that you want the M 240?

[ryan1938]

I use a pair of M 240's for work and have an MM as my personal camera. I ended up getting an A7R as a (please excuse me for this) beater camera.

 

The A7R really is a cool camera, and the files are fantastic, but it could never replace my 240's. Thankfully, it works really well with the 21mm SEM I shoot with, and I plan on getting the wide zoom for it when it becomes available, but for 35mm and 50mm, nothing beats the rangefinder for me. I don't think everyone will agree, so I have to admit this is just my personal opinion. I also may try the 90mm on the Sony, but have yet to do so.

 

In my experience, any time I have purchased anything less than exactly what I wanted, I always ended up spending more, because I would buy something else and still pine for the one I wanted until I broke down and bought that also.

 

Oh, and for the people telling you to look at an M9, I would second that. The M 240 is sweet, but it takes nothing away from the M9 and it's CCD. In fact, I may just buy an M9 since the prices are coming down so much. Is there a specific reason, like Live View or the EVF or higher ISO, that you want the M 240?

 

Two things have me wanting the 240:

 

1. High ISO performance

 

2. Longevity. I think the 240 would keep me from wanting to get a new digital camera every year... I owned the M8 for three years, then went to a DSLR for a year, then a X-Pro1 for a year, and now... I like the fact that the latest M keeps you for a while, ya know?

 

My question is, Is $6,500 a decent price for a mint, but used camera? Or should I take my chances on a long delivery for a new camera?

[Dikaiosune01]

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Two things have me wanting the 240:

 

1. High ISO performance

 

2. Longevity. I think the 240 would keep me from wanting to get a new digital camera every year... I owned the M8 for three years, then went to a DSLR for a year, then a X-Pro1 for a year, and now... I like the fact that the latest M keeps you for a while, ya know?

 

My question is, Is $6,500 a decent price for a mint, but used camera? Or should I take my chances on a long delivery for a new camera?

 

Your two reasons were the main reason I waited for a M240. 3 months ago, I didn't have a digital camera to my name. I now find myself shooting more looking at my images more. I still prefer to shoot film; but on those days where my film is really backlogged, I can still shoot digital without digging my work load heaving.

 

In regards to your question... and based on the information you provided ... ...

let's do the math. (i'm not sure about the values, please adjust values to taste.

Let's say you paid about 2500 to 3500 for the M8. you used it for three years. so you were paying about 1000 per year.

Hypothetically, if you changed and updated the xpro 1 every year you are still paying about 1100 every year.

 

Now. these values, are before you factor in lenses. Switching from DSLR, to fuji X lenses to leica lenses can get pretty pricey.

 

My conclusion is that there is a value in the longevity of a camera, that is often hidden by the initial start up cost. Car analogy: a 1980's BMW will still run great. But a 1980's ford escort would have rusted into ashes.

[tthorne]

Two things have me wanting the 240:

 

1. High ISO performance

 

2. Longevity. I think the 240 would keep me from wanting to get a new digital camera every year... I owned the M8 for three years, then went to a DSLR for a year, then a X-Pro1 for a year, and now... I like the fact that the latest M keeps you for a while, ya know?

 

My question is, Is $6,500 a decent price for a mint, but used camera? Or should I take my chances on a long delivery for a new camera?

 

If the high ISO is that important, and I can say that I have been happy with results up to 6400 (but like to keep it at 3200 and below), then the M 240 is for you. If you are a black and white guy and think you could live with that, then the MM is DEFINITELY for you.

 

It is hard to say if it is worth it financially when it comes to such a high priced camera, especially with competitors out there that have there own advantages at a lower price point. It really depends on some personal factors. That is basically a $500 discount, which isn't much, but personally, if it is mint condition, low shutter count, working perfectly, then it is basically a brand new camera. To not have to wait, that would be worth it to me personally.

 

I hope you end up buying it, because it sounds like you really want to, and I like seeing people get the things they want.

[jaapv]

All the above is true, but you say it is above your budget. No camera is worth getting yourself into financial trouble for.

[pieterpronk]

My question is, Is $6,500 a decent price for a mint, but used camera?

Decent? No.

It's price many of us have paid, but there is nothing decent about paying this much for a ff camera.

 

 

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[schmolinski]

All said above. Here in Germany a new cost 6'200€ So a more or less new item for 1'000€ less is compared to the competitors still expensive but it's a Leica an nothing else!

How long lasts the warranty? At least one year I think. So almost no risk at al

[parasko]

As you have already purchased the Sony, I would wait until it arrives and use it for a week or so to determine whether this camera suits your style of shooting, especially as you cannot afford to have both cameras. Furthermore, the price offered for the used M240 isn't such a bargain, especially when you consider that new M240s are now more readily available and you do not necessarily have to wait months to receive one.

 

Last week I was also deliberating between the purchase of an M240 and the Sony A7. Without having demo access to either camera, I went with the M240 only because of the rangefinder experience (as I usually shoot with M7s) and this is a unique feature of this digital camera. Otherwise, considering the price difference and the quality of the images online (although I know you cannot accurately assess image quality online) I would've purchased the Sony. Who knows, I may switch down the track if I am not satisfied with the M240 images. I really didn't like the M9 and ended up selling it after a few months of use.

[thighslapper]

I have an M and A7r.

 

Despite the hype I find the M a much better camera all round and much easier to use.

 

However .... to have a full Leica M system with enough lenses to be flexible you will need chronically deep pockets ....

 

Both the Sony's produce comparable/better image quality (If you print Billboard size).... IF paired with the right lenses .... and at a much more affordable price.

 

The price quoted for mint is good. There are plenty of as new second hand lenses at good prices.

 

M high iso 'performance' is 'better' than the Sonys ...... when you factor is the higher base ISO, ability to hand hold at lower speeds and manipulability of the files ..... with similar subjects I was using ISO's of half or less of what the Sony required ...

[mwilliamsphotography]

I hate these kinds of threads... but, I need some encouragement... or to be beaten...

 

Last week, I ordered a Sony A7 to compliment my M6 and my modest collection of Leica glass. It should be here on Friday.

 

The thing is, I just stumbled upon a mint 240 with 2000 shutter fires for $6,500. I can't afford it, but it's the camera I really, really want.

 

What should I do?

 

The A7 is $1,600 ... which I assume you can afford. $6,500 for the M is still a boat-load of cash ... nothing is worth choking over finances because frankly, in the end the differences are incremental, and both sure to be outdated in two years or so. All to often, when something requires such a stretch to get, it becomes to precious.

 

I just ran back-to-back tests of a Sony A7R and M240. I don't own either ... yet. The A7R is $2,300 and the like new M240 Demo was $6,500 before dickering.

 

As a rangefinder, the Leica is in a class of its' own. However, the Sony brings new functional options and versatility. I have to disagree that M240 high ISO is better than the Sony ... I had a slight banding issue at 3200-6400 with the M240, and none from the Sony at any ISO. Again, I don't have a horse in this race ... yet.

 

What I discovered is the Sony's EVF is state of the art and focus peaking with M lenses was vastly improved over what the NEX camera provided. So, for the first time ever, I was able to critically focus a Noctilux 50/0.95 wide open at close distance with the subject well off center.

 

The other functional option is AF.

 

The downside is that some M lenses cannot be used for critical work on the A7R ... okay for some stuff, not for others.

 

I have Sony 35mm gear, so I let my A7R pre-order ride because I can use it more fully. I sent the M240 Demo back because I don't want to fuss with the color issues any more ... especially the IR situation. This is a highly subjective debate, so keep in mind it is my decision not anyone else's.

 

Finally, there is no substitute for a rangefinder if that's your cup of tea. It is mine for sure ... but I feel rangefinder and B&W are synonymous so I use a Leica M Monochrome ... which has no color issues, and has ISO performance to spare : -) It is the first Leica M since my M6 that I can live with for a very long time.

 

- Marc

[Ascenda_MCL]

I just acquired an M 240 second hand with only 200 actuations. It is Mint as if never been opened up and used. The previous and only owner treated it like a jewel so I am very lucky. Still I am £4,700 lighter which is a lot of money (new retails at £5,100 here in the UK i.e.+$8000 if I am correct so US prices seem cheap in comparison) so it is not the bargain of the century of course, far from it.

 

The RF experience is worth having in my opinion but a new generation of Ipads and smartphones enthusiasts will consider this simply prehistoric and not worth the money. Why using a BBQ when you can have a micro wave...! Still, I love the way one interacts with the camera. I love the build quality too, the smell, the weight...

 

I am waiting for my a7R to be delivered any day now so cannot comment on its performance yet but everything I have read, except with some super wide angles, tells me that this is going to deliver a very good job and possibly exceed the M.

 

I am the worst example as I am lucky enough to be able to afford both cameras. But there is one thing I am sure about. If I could not afford the M I would go for the a7R without any hesitation - because the value for money is exceptional. Another option would be to buy an M9 so you can convince yourself whether the RF system is for you or not without breaking the bank.

 

The M or the M9 buy is more of a passionate buy, the 'buying the legend' kind even if the system may be obsolete or superseded or both, even if the price is ridiculously high. The price is therefore secondary and it will take the time it takes but you will put your hands on a second hand version in the end. The M carries the emotion of the first (and last) girlfriend you ever loved.

The a7R buy in comparison is a logical and reasoned buy - the girlfriend that was not your first love but became the wife because she was there at the right place at the right time and she gave you the most beautiful kids in the world. The price is attractive and the outputs looks very promising....as far as the excitement goes it may be a different story !

 

So in truth it is not a question of which camera vs the other is better, it is a question of what your heart is telling you, how you want to experience photography and whether you prefer to wait to get what you really want or not. No camera makes a photographer better although it may help the average ones. I know of at least one blurry shot from Robert Cappa on D-day that is absolutely rubbish focus wise but which did travel round the globe and became an iconic picture. In a good picture only the emotion truly matters and a talented photographer can capture it even with a disposable camera. So if you believe the best tool to convey the emotion to make a great picture is the M, then you better wait and get a used Leica, if not get the Sony and if neither of those, get a cheaper one and still you could get great pictures out of it I am sure.

My Dad spent most of his life shooting a Nikon F. And he remains much more talented than I will ever be despite me owning an M 240 and he does not. I may be beating him on the sharpness of some pictures or the possibility to shoot in low light but he has got a special way of conveying the emotion out of a picture that not everyone has...M or not M, Sony or not Sony, that is not the real question...

[Stealth3kpl]

The A7R really is a cool camera................ Thankfully, it works really well with the 21mm SEM I shoot

 

 

There are many who would like you to start a thread with some examples of this combo.

 

Incidently, if it makes the OP feel better about investing in an M, I've just bought two MPs! How dated is that technology?! Am I worried? No, I love the experience of shooting film and film Leicas so for the next couple of years at least, I'll have no GAS....(maybe).

Pete

[dgc]

Is it that you cannot afford it or cannot justify spending this amount of money ?

If you cannot afford it, that is your answer. Even if you cannot justify it, the re-sale value still seems to be quite high, so you will probably not lose out too much if you end up finding it difficult to sleep at night !!

The problem is that Leica suck you in and before you know it you have two cameras and 3 lenses (and I only started looking seriously at Leica in June of this year).

I primarily bought into the system for the quality of the lenses, but when you hold a Leica you can feel the quality and pedigree. You will know this from the M6; I have not had that feeling with other cameras. Another factor you may consider is that if you already own several Leica mount lenses, it could save you money in the long term, especially if you intend to purchase new lenses for your new Sony.

There are several members on this forum who have indicated that they have bought 'cheap and paid twice' rather than get the camera/ accessories they should have bought first time round - I am just saying consider your decision carefully rather than that the Sony a7r is cheap.

If you can wait a few months on the waiting list and be able to afford/ justify the camera then get the M; I have not regretted it and you will be able to sleep soundly knowing you have what you wanted.

 

David

[Naper]

As Leica gets caught up with the order backlog on the M240 more used M's will be available and the prices will drop. $6500. sounds good today but in 6 months it will be less. If you can't afford today wait.

[leicavkk]

If you enjoy your m6 get the M and cancel the A7r. if you can't afford it wait until the price drops. I went through many Nex series but my M9 always stayed. Granted Nex was not ff but that wasn't the reason, I always missed shooting with an M. The m9 is a fine camera but the 240 is better and I loved my M9. If you love your leica glass then it will pair best with an M. I know my M will drop in value but I also know it is the last camera I need for a long time for my M lenses and doing photography the way it inspires me. I own a DSLR and it serves it's function but it's never inspiring. Follow your inspiration.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jcraf]

Follow your inspiration.

 

And your heart. One is made by a huge faceless organization.....and one by Leica. I think for all of us, the heritage and passion of the brand comes into it, not to mention the quality.

 

Before I came back to Leica again (I'd used M cameras for many years, then abandoned them at around the M8 era) I fooled myself by buying a Fuji X Pro 1 and a few Fuji lenses, thinking it would reproduce the M experience at a lower price. A very fine camera, the Fuji, from a fine company. But not a Leica.

 

Now I have a Leica again (an M240) I'm am a very happy photographer. And it's a wonderful tool too.

 

If you can do it, do it!