The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[lct]

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Wait and see how those FF marvels will behave with Leica wides. I don't hold my breath if you ask me.

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[CheshireCat]

Funny to read that Leica is trying to compete with non competitors just able to make APS cams and a single FF one deprieved of viewfinder and interchangeable lenses so far. It is up to Sony, Fuji or others to take the plunge and demonstrate what they can do to equal the master. As far as rangefinders are concerned, this will never happen IMHO.

 

FYI, Sony produces the best FF sensor you can find on the market (and it is not the one in the RX1).

 

About electronics, Leica is using 6 years old Fujitsu technology. The firmware is a joke.

About EVF, Leica is stuck with obsolete Olympus parts.

Back LCD has finally reached P&S quality.

 

What's left ? Oh, the optical rangefinder... yes, Leica is the leader in that technology. Too bad just a few people are interested in this technology (for many good reasons), that will be totally obsolete in a couple of years.

 

So what shall Sony or Fuji do to equal the "master" ?

 

The answer is: lenses. Great lenses. But as discussed, this is a niche, and Zeiss is taking care of it.

[dwbell]

Wait and see how those FF marvels will behave with Leica wides. I don't hold my breath if you ask me.

 

Who said anything about using Leica wides? There are other glass manufacturers. Fuji is kinda well known too....

[lct]

...So what shall Sony or Fuji do to equal the "master" ?...

Nothing so far. Wait and see those famous FF cams and we can discuss this usefully.

[lct]

Who said anything about using Leica wides?....

Me and other LUF members using Leica lenses i guess. If Zeiss and/or Fuji make FF glass for non-Leica bodies so much the better for them but i have too many M and R lenses to be the least interested.

[IkarusJohn]

Me and other LUF members using Leica lenses i guess. If Zeiss and/or Fuji make FF glass for non-Leica bodies so much the better for them but i have too many M and R lenses to be the least interested.

 

I'd like to use my Leica lenses on something other than a Leica M camera.

 

When the whole issue of the M8 LCD's blew up, the wise people on this forum made a great point of saying that the camera is just electronics, it is not for life, we have to get used to the idea that it is simply expendable.

 

Well, if that is the case, I want to spend less on that disposable part of the system, and get better technology to boot. I like the Leica form factor, but it would be very nice to have the lower price, better performance and better technology others have to offer (Sony in particular).

 

Okay, this is a bit tongue in cheek, but it is a fair comment to point out that Leica's attitude to technology doesn't totally match its premium price. I like my M9-P and I won't be sorry if it doesn't sell. For me, a better development for Leica would be to simply improve the M9, but retain its point of difference. I'm not sure the M (typ 240) does that, and the XV certainly doesn't (unless the point of difference is not to be a technology leader).

 

Sony is interesting, and seems to have the best chance of producing interesting products - since the M9 (& Monochrom), Leica has produced the M (typ 240), which seems to be having slight teething problems, and is looking like a following camera (always a risk with the switch to CMOS, I guess).

[lct]

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...it is a fair comment to point out that Leica's attitude to technology doesn't totally match its premium price...

A subjective comment that i respect but i don't share at all as far as the M240 is concerned. To me the latter is simply the best digital M ever made and would become my best M body if Leica could shorten its waking time significantly.

[Rick]

Sony is interesting, and seems to have the best chance of producing interesting products - since the M9 (& Monochrom), Leica has produced the M (typ 240), which seems to be having slight teething problems, and is looking like a following camera (always a risk with the switch to CMOS, I guess).

 

John, I'm not sure I am ready to jump ship from Leica and put all my eggs in the Sony basket. I don't think they have my interests at heart... which is a simple opto-mechanical interface with my hand and brain. At this point I'll stick with Leica. And, just by the way, my M240 isn't really having any teething problems - it is just a solid, 100%, kick-ass, M-lens machine. If, you want to shoot M-lenses then you really need to get this camera, I'm trying to help you.

[IkarusJohn]

A subjective comment that i respect but i don't share at all as far as the M240 is concerned. To me the latter is simply the best digital M ever made and would become my best M body if Leica could shorten its waking time significantly.

 

I bow to your view, as I have neither seen nor held one - I have simply looked at the spec sheets, people's experiences and the price. The camera lacks the purity of purpose of the M9-P, yet costs more on its own than a D800E and the latest and greatest zoom put together. I guess that's why I'm struggling with it a bit, and it appears to me to be a bit stuck in no man's land.

 

I should concede that once teething issues have been resolved, and we've all become comfortable with the new sensor (profiles and all that), I will almost certainly be in the market for the next iteration.

[IkarusJohn]

John, I'm not sure I am ready to jump ship from Leica and put all my eggs in the Sony basket. I don't think they have my interests at heart... which is a simple opto-mechanical interface with my hand and brain. At this point I'll stick with Leica. And, just by the way, my M240 isn't really having any teething problems - it is just a solid, 100%, kick-ass, M-lens machine. If, you want to shoot M-lenses then you really need to get this camera, I'm trying to help you.

 

Thanks Rick - I mean teething issues in the loosest possible way. I am not going with Sony - I gave my Nex to my son, and I'm not really looking to repeat that experience. It was fun, and I liked the smaller form factor with all the electronics that CMOS brought (being able to focus using live view and video with Leica lenses), but the menus and image quality were sources of frustration.

 

I'm going the D800E route for the moment - camera (with great sensor, live view and video), good zoom and macro for about the same price (if not slightly less) than the cost of the M (typ 240) on its own. The thought of investing in R glass for the same gain killed the M (typ 240) for me. Sure, the D800E is a dSLR and it's huge compared to my M cameras, but it does other things. I will still keep and use my M system with the same passion I felt at the start. Pushing that system into zoom and macro looks too much like a compromise; and a very expensive on at that.

 

If Leica filled the gap between the M cameras with a smaller, cheaper body (using the same CMOSis sensor, without the rangefinder) and a line of AF lenses which do what the M lenses cannot - zoom & macro - then I might be interested, but frankly at the moment this is solid Canikon territory.

 

I do think Leica could (should) explore this territory, and if you look beyond the M system, they have vast experience in this area. It doesn't need to be as expensive either (note, I said need - they don't need to charge such silly prices for a lens cap either). Some competition might be good (hence, Sony & Zeiss).

 

Cheers

John

[AlanG]

I think that having a balance of features in a camera can do more for capturing a great image than just having a high quality lens and a good sensor. E.g. for hand held shooting, the lack of vibration from an electronic first curtain shutter and IS can be more important than what lens is on the camera. These are not cameras that I am typically using like a view camera.

 

I don't have a clue if Sony will be making an FF Nex type camera any time soon or if it will work well with M wides. But I would bet that Canon is looking to put its new sensor AF technology into an APS mirrorless body and also has a road-map to make full frame mirrorless versions.

 

If none of these "possible" future models work well with M lenses then the hope is that Leica will keep improving its M model... assuming there is something one finds lacking in it.

[barjohn]

The problem I see with this discussion is the lack of "out of the box" thinking. Everyone assumes that the only way to address the issues of the close rear element and wide projection angle is to use micro-lenses and firmware ala Leica approach. However, with Sony's sensor technology ability what would happen if the produced a curved sensor? The ray angle could be perpendicular to the surface at all point and no micro lens required. Smaller lenses would be possible too. There could be other approaches that haven't been thought of by anyone here that might work too. Just some food for thought.

[timd.]

However, with Sony's sensor technology ability what would happen if the produced a curved sensor? The ray angle could be perpendicular to the surface at all point and no micro lens required. Smaller lenses would be possible too. There could be other approaches that haven't been thought of by anyone here that might work too. Just some food for thought.

 

if they made a whole series of new lenses, it might work. the problem with the lenses existing now is that the angle differs depending on the design. what you would need is a sensor that bends depending on the used lens - but i feel solving the ray angle that way brings up serious focusing problems.

[jaapv]

If they produced a curved sensor only the centre would be in focus... But the microlens problem would be solved.

[mjh]

A curved sensor would be quite difficult to manufacture, it could solve the issues with large incident angles for a single lens only, and would create issues for any other – also it would ruin edge sharpness even for that lens so it would be best to just forget about this.

 

And to reiterate: There is no reason to suppose that Sony, even if one believed they could, would spend a thought on how to solve issues with Leica M lenses.

[AlanG]

 

And to reiterate: There is no reason to suppose that Sony, even if one believed they could, would spend a thought on how to solve issues with Leica M lenses.

 

Yes and no. Sony and others may not care about accommodating Leica lenses but they do have an interest in sensors that can accept light from sharper angles. Now that companies are making small mirrorless cameras there is a demand for smaller lenses. The lack of a mirrorbox opens up new possibilities of design.

 

Recently Fuji/Panasonic made an announcement that they are working on new "organic" sensor technology. One of the advantages that they listed was the better angle of acceptance and the possibility of smaller lens designs.

 

Fujifilm and Panasonic collaborate on 'industry-leading' organic/CMOS sensor: Digital Photography Review

 

"Since the conventional silicon photodiode measures at least 3 microns in depth, the range of incident angles was limited to around 30 – 40 degrees. The thin film, achieved with the organic CMOS image sensor technology, has enabled the expansion of this range to 60 degrees, efficiently utilizing light entering at an angle for faithful color reproduction with no color mixing. It also gives greater flexibility in lens designs, facilitating the reduction of overall camera size." My emphasis.

[CheshireCat]

Sensors will not be a problem very soon.

Sony and other companies do innovate. Leica does not.

Is it so difficult to see ?

[CaptZoom]

Sensors will not be a problem very soon.

Sony and other companies do innovate. Leica does not.

Is it so difficult to see ?

 

Leica innovates...just not in the same areas as other camera companies. Take their lenses. They're constantly pushing lens design. You know they're near the top and the law of diminishing returns has started to kick when the demand is for Leica to start defying physics (see the threads about being able to produce flare on the new 50 cron). Leica innovated in designing sensor tech to work with RF lenses, especially FF sensors. And to my knowledge, the M series remains the most compact FF camera with interchangeable lenses. Leica's also busy redefining the medium format market with the S series bodies and lenses. That being said, Leica does not innovate in other areas, such as ISO performance etc (we all know the areas where they're behind and in apparently no rush to catch up). I do agree that a compact (roughly M series size or smaller) FF interchangeable camera with accompanying lenses* that perform close to Leica IQ, may force Leica to start innovating in other areas. I do have to disclose that the RF remains one of my primary reasons for buying into Leica (and I fully understand that I'm in the minority and marketing just to such a small niche is ultimately not sustainable if things in photography continue to move in the current direction).

 

*One of the serious deficiencies in the NEX series is the lack of great optics. On the other hand m4/3 has started to mature with some fantastic lens offerings, and Fuji seems to be off to a fantastic start. It's curious that Sony's lagging so far behind given their partnership with Zeiss (as far as the NEX series is concerned; I understand that the Alpha series has some fantastic lens offerings).

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[CheshireCat]

As far as lenses are concerned, I totally agree.

I was talking about all the rest

[Rick]

Sensors will not be a problem very soon.

Sony and other companies do innovate. Leica does not.

Is it so difficult to see ?

 

I see your bold emphasis on the word innovate; to make changes in something established, make something new. Have we all agreed that something new is better and that we always want something new? Put on an old shirt and go out and take some pictures.