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The Sony A7 thread [Merged]


dmclalla

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The problem is that, you can have a smallish mount diameter (like Leica and Nikon F,) and you can have a short registration distance, but having BOTH a small mount and super short registration distance is going to be a mechanical interference issue, unless Sony radically changes their sensor design (the VG-900 is pretty awful with a lot of M lenses.)

 

As far as I know, there is no mechanical interference when using M lenses on the VG900.

The flange distance is increased by the M to NEX adapter, of course.

 

The only problem seems to be corner sharpness at the edges with ultra wides. This is most probably due to very inclined rays traversing thick sensor layers. It is interesting to note that there is no Italian flag issues on any of the examples I have seen.

 

Then again, the VG900 has an old sensor, and no one knows if a new FF sensor with different layers is being prepared. In any case, retrofocus-like lenses or Cornerfix will solve all color cast issues ;)

 

P.S. There, 01af, I said "retrofocus-like" again :D

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... Just take a look at the image on the sonyalpharumors.com site: (SR4) UPDATED: FF-NEX coming soon? Stay tuned on SAR!!! | sonyalpharumors. That is not at all what I want to see when looking through the mount of a modern system camera. Either the sensor would need to be smaller (as so far it is in the Nex system) or the throat diameter be bigger.

 

If I were Sony I wouldn’t build this camera. A new FF system would be a different matter, of course.

 

Since Sony already makes a full frame E mount video/still camera I would expect any other full frame Nex camera would use this same mount and Alpha adapter concept. I can't see any reason Sony couldn't repackage the NEX-VG900 with a new sensor and some updates to be a still/video camera rather than being a video/still camera. And I don't see why they'd care about how well M lenses work on it if that made things difficult.

 

The new AF sensor system that Canon has in the 70D is the kind of technology that would be good for Sony to use (should they be able to license it) in its Nex line to improve AF speed and eliminate the need for a semi-silvered mirror and AF sensor in their Alpha AF to Nex lens adapter. I don't know how well that type of sensor works with angled light. However Fuji/Panasonic are working on that issue. It looks like the not too distant future may have some solutions.

 

If that works out smaller lenses that go closer to the sensor (including short M lenses) may work fine inside of a smallish lens mount. (Without the need for a huge rear element right over the sensor.) Perhaps some day they will also make E mount lenses that cover a full frame sensor but I don't see why they'd want a third lens line right now.

 

Fujifilm and Panasonic collaborate on 'industry-leading' organic/CMOS sensor: Digital Photography Review

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This may be absurdly obvious but it isn't to me:

 

There seem to be some people arguing in favor of Sony adapting the M mount for a hypothetical full frame mirrorless camera body. Is the M mount out of patent/copyright (whichever is correct)? Otherwise would Sony need Leuca's permission/license to use the M mount on their camera bodies? If so, would it make sense for Sony to use the M mount? I suppose both companies could find a way to profit from such an alliance, but it seems unlikely that such an accord be possible between modern corporations.

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This may be absurdly obvious but it isn't to me:

 

There seem to be some people arguing in favor of Sony adapting the M mount for a hypothetical full frame mirrorless camera body. Is the M mount out of patent/copyright (whichever is correct)? Otherwise would Sony need Leuca's permission/license to use the M mount on their camera bodies? If so, would it make sense for Sony to use the M mount? I suppose both companies could find a way to profit from such an alliance, but it seems unlikely that such an accord be possible between modern corporations.

 

The Leica M mount is no longer protected by any patents, and companies such as Ricoh have used this mount in products like their A12 sensor/M mount combo for the GXR camera. I do not believe however that Sony will introduce a new camera with the M mount.

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Is the M mount out of patent/copyright (whichever is correct)?

 

Apparently so.

 

The alternative, of course, is their own mount, with Novoflex or similar producing an M adapter (they currently do this for many different cameras) - but the issue is then how the sensor responds to Leica lenses, particularly the register distance and Leica's wide angle lenses (sharpness and Italian Flag, in particular).

 

There's not actually a compelling reason for Sony to use the M mount, except that it is existing, proven technology, their lens maker already makes high quality M mount lenses (albeit not AF), and they would sell (a few) more cameras.

 

Having said that, the RX-1 has surprised every one (not least Sony) with its popularity.

 

Cheers

John

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As far as I know, there is no mechanical interference when using M lenses on the VG900.

The flange distance is increased by the M to NEX adapter, of course.

 

The only problem seems to be corner sharpness at the edges with ultra wides. This is most probably due to very inclined rays traversing thick sensor layers. It is interesting to note that there is no Italian flag issues on any of the examples I have seen.

 

Then again, the VG900 has an old sensor, and no one knows if a new FF sensor with different layers is being prepared. In any case, retrofocus-like lenses or Cornerfix will solve all color cast issues ;)

 

P.S. There, 01af, I said "retrofocus-like" again :D

 

Of course there are no mechanical interference issues with M lenses on the VG-900, but that's the point. The VG900 has issues with sharpness across the field with M lenses, and not just the ultrawide M lenses. Even NEX aps-c cameras don't have the across the field sharpness that the M cameras have with M lenses.

 

Color shift is relatively easy to fix, but across the field sharpness is not. Heck, even the NEX-7 has issues with resolution as you get towards the sensor edges with its own native lenses.

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This may be absurdly obvious but it isn't to me:

 

There seem to be some people arguing in favor of Sony adapting the M mount for a hypothetical full frame mirrorless camera body. Is the M mount out of patent/copyright (whichever is correct)? Otherwise would Sony need Leuca's permission/license to use the M mount on their camera bodies? If so, would it make sense for Sony to use the M mount? I suppose both companies could find a way to profit from such an alliance, but it seems unlikely that such an accord be possible between modern corporations.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that Sony would use M mount. No way. The question is whether M lenses will perform ok with an M lens adapter. Sony will have to change their current sensor design quite a bit if we're to expect good performance with M lenses, which I don't see happening.

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I'll believe there's a 35-mm full-frame Sony NEX when I see it.

 

It doesn't make sense to put a 35-mm full-frame sensor in a camera with Sony E mount. If they did, they'd have to make a whole new line of lenses anyway—so they could just as well introduce an entirely new, wider mount altogether which would make more sense. E mount is for APS-C lenses, period. There are no legacy E-mount lenses anyone would want to re-use on a full-frame NEX body. And the existing A mount would not make sense either, due to the long flange distance.

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The Leica M mount is no longer protected by any patents, and companies such as Ricoh have used this mount in products like their A12 sensor/M mount combo for the GXR camera. I do not believe however that Sony will introduce a new camera with the M mount.

 

The six-bit coding is protected by patent, so Sony cannot recognize the lenses.

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The six-bit coding is protected by patent, so Sony cannot recognize the lenses.

 

They can't recognise the Leica lenses, but I doubt that would be a priority.

 

I do take the point, though, that Sony might not really have any interest in using the M Mount - adapters are another thing, though ...

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Six-bit coding isn't necessary. Look at what Fuji have done with their M adaptor. Quick and easy recognition of focal length and the ability to store lens correction presets.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

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I'll believe there's a 35-mm full-frame Sony NEX when I see it.

 

It doesn't make sense to put a 35-mm full-frame sensor in a camera with Sony E mount. If they did, they'd have to make a whole new line of lenses anyway—so they could just as well introduce an entirely new, wider mount altogether which would make more sense. E mount is for APS-C lenses, period. There are no legacy E-mount lenses anyone would want to re-use on a full-frame NEX body. And the existing A mount would not make sense either, due to the long flange distance.

 

Don't Canon do this with their EF/EF-S lenses though? You could have two sets of bodies - cheaper crop versions with their own lenses, and larger full frame versions with lenses that use the same mount, but are designed for full frame.

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Guest borge
Don't Canon do this with their EF/EF-S lenses though? You could have two sets of bodies - cheaper crop versions with their own lenses, and larger full frame versions with lenses that use the same mount, but are designed for full frame.

 

Yup, and so does nikon with their "DX" lenses which only works on cropped sensor units.

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Don't Canon do this with their EF/EF-S lenses though? You could have two sets of bodies - cheaper crop versions with their own lenses, and larger full frame versions with lenses that use the same mount, but are designed for full frame.
Yes - but that would mean scrapping the current NEX line and bringing out cropped cameras with a large mount.
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They can't recognise the Leica lenses, but I doubt that would be a priority.

 

I do take the point, though, that Sony might not really have any interest in using the M Mount - adapters are another thing, though ...

They would need to recognise the lenses in order to make decent corrections in firmware - but it is moot as it won't happen.

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Yes - but that would mean scrapping the current NEX line and bringing out cropped cameras with a large mount.

 

Why?

 

The D800 takes cropped and full frame; Nikon hasn't discontinued its DX line.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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They would need to recognise the lenses in order to make decent corrections in firmware - but it is moot as it won't happen.

 

Again, why? None of the other adapters do this. The NEX makes no corrections for Leica lenses. Actually, how many adapters make these corrections? The yet to be released Leica R to M 240 adapter doesn't do this - you just get a generic R lens code.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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Result - even the APS-C NEX has less than optimal results with Leica wideangles, even 35 mm.

That would be increased fourfold on a full frame sensor.

The long register distance of SLR lenses avoids these problems altogether.

 

You may have missed the discussion, but Leica did try to use a Sony sensor for the M - It turned out that Sony has no full-frame sensor in its assortement that is adequate for rangefinder lenses. That is why they decided to go for a special development sensor with CMOSIS. There is simply nothing suitable on the market.

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...but Leica did try to use a Sony sensor for the M - It turned out that Sony has no full-frame sensor in its assortement that is adequate for rangefinder lenses. That is why they decided to go for a special development sensor with CMOSIS. There is simply nothing suitable on the market.

 

"has no" or "was not willing to divulge to tiny third party / competitor at that stage"?

 

We'll find out soon I suspect.

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