The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[naturephoto1]

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I actually have the A7R... that is the camera I am posting about. I am not making assumptions at all. I have had the camera since Dec 2nd.

 

I am not interested in the Sony A7 for my Leica M lenses. I have the M240 and it is designed for all of the wide M lenses and does exceptionally well. I am not interested in cherry picking just good M performers for either camera and going through all sorts of post processing gyrations with flat field plug-ins and shooting through plastic to make a catalog of correction files at all f-stops and for all different color temperatures.

 

When Sony introduced this camera I was lead to believe by them that the off-set micro-lenses in the corner of the sensor allowed RF lenses to work on this camera. They even market an M-E adaptor and offered it in the Australian box with the A7.

 

I have been exchanging emails with Lou (algrove) and have been talking about which lenses seem to work on the A7R... he seems to have them all. I've come to the conclusion that I don't want to do all the work around with my M lenses and there just isn't enough reason for me to keep it for my R-lenses... I can get 24MP out of my M and just carry the one body.

 

I have sent my A7R back today. I could write a long post, but there isn't a reason for that. It is going to be a fantastic camera for some for sure, and I get that.

 

Rick

 

Rick,

 

Sorry the A7r camera did not work out for you. I am not sending my A7r back. In fact I will be ordering my 17th R lens next week, an R 28mm f2.8 Elmarit V2. Then in January I intend to get a Contax 21mm f2.8 Distagon lens. This will fill my MF lens needs for the foreseeable future.

 

Rich

Edited December 14, 2013 by naturephoto1

[Rick]

As far as I know, the adapter is a package deal from a specific Australian retailer. Sony's page for Australia makes no mention of it. I recall Sony reps speculating the 7r would work better, but speculation is just that.

 

That said, it's too bad the camera didn't work out for your needs. Obviously adapting non-native lenses to cameras is risky, and it's not surprising that people used to Leica results aren't happy with Sony results.

 

 

This camera was introduced with only one system lens. Sony had to try and market it to users that had 3rd party lenses or else nobody would have bought a body unsupported by any system lenses. The only lens I could find was the 35mm/2.8 kit lens that was offered with the A7. When I purchased mine there was no system lens to buy... which was ok because, I wanted to use my M-lenses... because Sony stated the sensor was designed to give top of the top performance with conventional lenses and RF lenses.

 

 

Again, Sony specifically mentioned the design with reference to RF lenses. Here is a Sony rep. discussing the corner microlenses of the A7R and how they can offset the issue of shading and color issue and he goes on and states that the picture quality is not only top of the top for conventional lenses but also Rf lenses. Start watching around 29:20 for the BS and to watch the roe. squirm around the wording: Sony Alpha A7 & A7R - Hands-on at the Launch event - DigiDIRECT TV Ep 049 - YouTube

 

Next, the offer was not from a specific dealer it was definitely from Sony of Australia. Here is what was in the box with the A7. It is a Sony promotion and links to a Sony site.

 

 

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I find it a little funny that now we discovered that the wide RF lenses don't work so well that people want to say that Sony never said they would. Of course they did, they had to otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to sell a camera that was introduced with practically no lenses of its own.

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[gdi]

Duncan,

 

Same here. The Leica M-lenses (like the 35 FLE) do not work as reported by Sony. I've also abandoned my 35mm Leica lenses (and everything Leica below 75mm) on the A7R as well. They are not very good on the A7R.

 

I am now left wondering WTF to put on this camera. Sony hasn't provided much other than their 35, but that is too slow to build a system around. This camera is a big disappointment for me. And, I'm sure not going to buy into their big 50mm lenses. The Otus is huge and the 55 is1.8... that's ok, but I have one of the best 50mm lens ever made in the venerable 50mm Leica Summilux. What would I do with a big Sony 55mm f1.8?

 

Lot's of techie bang in this camera for sure, but a lot of fizzle for us M-lens owners. What are you going to do? Keep it or go back to the M? I'm still trying to decide if it even works well enough for me to use my R-lenses with?

 

Problem for me is that the focus peeking is so over done with the contrasty APO lenses I have that it is hard to focus. I don't think sony engineers factored in contrasty lenses like my 280/4 APO into their implementation of their focus peeking highlights. LOL! I'm on the low setting and still having such a wide range of focus that it is very often useless to use on the Leica APO lenses. Now I understand why Leica's focus peeking is hard to see for some people. It has to be, otherwise it would be so wide as to be useless.

 

I also am having frustrations getting consistently clear images with my R-lenses! I have a big Manfroto tripod, but I think I am going to have to get something bigger to tame the blur. I also may need a bigger ball head. I am not sure if it is the shutter (clunk) or if the extra pixels are the problem.

 

Hand held is also a problem. Again, not sure if it is the shutter, high pixels, or the light body and the heavy lenses I'm using. I think that there is a sweet spot where the camera weight and the lens weight provide a torsional stability that just isn't realized by a feather weight body like the A7R. My RX1 seems to be much better.

 

I have a feeling there are going to be a lot more returns than just Jono.

 

Rick

 

I have the same question- what lenses do I use on it? I want things to work in the center and all the way to the edges. There may be a few M lenses under 50mm that the Sony can handle, but it looks like I don't own any! Even most of my 50s smear well into the frame on the A7r.

 

Rick, are saying that you are seeing smearing on R lenses as well? Or just that it is tricky to stabilize? I can deal with the later, not the former. I am considering buying into some R lenses, but I don't want to dive in if it is going to a smeary experience !

 

Thanks

[Rick]

I have the same question- what lenses do I use on it? I want things to work in the center and all the way to the edges. There may be a few M lenses under 50mm that the Sony can handle, but it looks like I don't own any! Even most of my 50s smear well into the frame on the A7r.

 

Rick, are saying that you are seeing smearing on R lenses as well? Or just that it is tricky to stabilize? I can deal with the later, not the former. I am considering buying into some R lenses, but I don't want to dive in if it is going to a smeary experience !

 

Thanks

 

No. The R lenses are unbelievable on this camera. I've never seen better images from my 280/APO. Same for 75 lux, 90 Macro Elmar. I'd recommend anyone with this camera to get the 90 MA. It is just that good.

 

Yes, for me I prefer the focus on the M for R-lenses. I also really like the center focus on the Canon the best with the Dandelion chip for focus confirmation. A new Canon 5DIV could be my ultimate R-lens solution.

Edited December 14, 2013 by RickLeica

[JimKasson]

Well, the DOF markings are wildly off on the M lenses in this digital large-print age, so I doubt that is the reason.

 

It's very easy to use the DOF markings for a stop that's not the one the lens is actually set to. I generally give two stops windage, and three for critical work.

 

Jim

[Rick]

I've unfortunately come to the conclusion that it's (M240) obsolescent.

Kirk

 

You sure you want to go with that? If, you own a bunch of Leica lenses the M240 is the only complete game in town with a current sensor in the top 5.

 

Anyway, I don't think you will have a problem with the lenses you are mentioning on the A7R. My 50 Lux was ok if you aren't going to really nit -pick the corners...otherwise the 50 Lux + A7R is up there with the M240 and beyond in the center.

 

I guess it is inevitable that this choice is going to involve some personal rationalization.

[MarkP]

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Rick,

 

I'd like to thank you for being my crash test dummy for the A7R. You have answered all of my questions and I'm glad I cancelled my order.

 

I want to maintain a simple fully compatible system, so a camera on which I can't use a number of my wide M lenses doesn't work for me.

 

Consistent control and menu layout on my cameras is also important to me and lets me work the controls almost subconsciously. I can move seamlessly between the M9, M and Monochrom with identical major control layout. I like that the digital M cameras are so uncluttered and the control layout so familiar

 

I like using the M with option of OVF or occasionally EVF. I really don't particularly like focusing off a digital image - give me an optical VF any day.

 

I only have two R lenses (28-90 Vario-Elmar and 28 PC Super-Angulon) both of which are great on the M. I actually don't mind the M EVF for what I do and I can almost always focus straight off the x1 setting on the EVF + focus peaking for any subject within the composition (but obviously not for more critical shallow DOF or with the 135 APO-Telyt wide open). That I can't redirect the focus point doesn't bother me because of the hassle of allocating that point in the first place I might as well recompose (I want a camera that focuses where I look and then lets me lock it in!).

 

Although the A7R will probably be spectacular with the 28-90 zoom I'm not sure whether I even want to keep the zoom as I find the triple rings of zoom, focus and aperture a PITA which is probably why I gave up on zooms years ago and of course I have the 28-50 MATE.

 

Some of the M technology may already be outdated but so will that of the A7 series with in a year or so.

 

The money I've saved money is now going towards a 75 Summilux.

 

Thanks again,

Mark.

[gdi]

No. The R lenses are unbelievable on this camera. I've never seen better images from my 280/APO. Same for 75 lux, 90 Macro Elmar. I'd recommend anyone with this camera to get the 90 MA. It is just that good.

 

Yes, for me I prefer the focus on the M for R-lenses. I also really like the center focus on the Canon the best with the Dandelion chip for focus confirmation. A new Canon 5DIV could be my ultimate R-lens solution.

 

Here is what I'm thinking, I welcome any input...

 

I feel I'll get good performance with my 90 Summicron-M pre-asph, and I believe one or both of my Elmar-M 50 and Noctilux F1 will do well. So I am thinking about something wide in R to start with.

 

I am looking at all Elmarit-Rs - the 35mm or maybe the the 28 3cam. And for really wide the 19mm. Do you have any experience with these, Rick (or anyone else), that may help me to assemble a solid kit for the A7r and maybe the M240 at some point?

 

Thanks

[k-hawinkler]

Image at 14%, Sony A7R + Novoflex NEX/LER with ASTAT-NEX + Leica Vario-Elmarit-R 1:2.8-4.5/28-90 ASPH. E67 on Gitzo GT1541T + RRS BH-30 Pro.

Focus was on the facilities building at the next mesa, ISO 100, f/11, 1/20 s, focal length 90 mm, shot with 2 s delay.

 

Image at 25% http://winklers.smugmug.com/photos/i-WR3NRWJ/0/O/i-WR3NRWJ.jpg

Image at 50% http://winklers.smugmug.com/photos/i-MHrg7DH/0/O/i-MHrg7DH.jpg

Image at 100% http://winklers.smugmug.com/photos/i-G3N5RCV/0/O/i-G3N5RCV.jpg

[Rick]

Here is what I'm thinking, I welcome any input...

 

I feel I'll get good performance with my 90 Summicron-M pre-asph, and I believe one or both of my Elmar-M 50 and Noctilux F1 will do well. So I am thinking about something wide in R to start with.

 

I am looking at all Elmarit-Rs - the 35mm or maybe the the 28 3cam. And for really wide the 19mm. Do you have any experience with these, Rick (or anyone else), that may help me to assemble a solid kit for the A7r and maybe the M240 at some point?

 

Thanks

 

I should clear up that when I said that the R-lenses are "unbelievable" on this camera I mean the Tele lenses. I own nothing under 100mm in R-lenses. I can't comment on those R-lenses.

 

Also, please don't ask me to indorse this camera and pick lenses for you. This camera has some problems that need to be addressed. Like why the focus is so hit and miss? Is there a shutter problem? Why is there so much CA centrally? I am trying to side step these issues and other problems like shadow color noise that from experience often can't be judged at this point in the RAW developers. And, guys like K-H will figure out if the there really exist focus or camera shake problems or if, it is something else. I'm not the long lens technique expert at this rarefied level, for sure.

 

Next, 50mm in my view, for me, is unworkable on the A7R with my Summilux. The extra MPs and technological stuff on this camera does not overcome the image quality compared to the M240 (with M lenses). You need to get up over 50mm before this camera becomes interesting for M lenses... so, you can imagine that doesn't leave many lenses to recommend a kit.

 

I'll post a 280/4 APO picture next. If, money was no object I would have kept the A7R and just glued it to this lens. I do regret sending the A7R back from that standpoint. But, I feel fortunate to have the M and I know something else is around the corner for this lens.

Edited December 14, 2013 by RickLeica

[Guest polygamer]

... I wanted to use my M-lenses... because Sony stated the sensor was designed to give top of the top performance with conventional lenses and RF lenses.

Hi, professionally I have to make (or avoid making) legally binding statements occasionally.

 

SONY wrote that you can try your non-SONY lenses. Nothing is stated or implied about the results.

 

I did not expect more. It was the same with APS-C Fujis. Beautiful pictures with some Leica glass - but not all.

 

I shall keep my a7 and find out the optimal combinations. The more lenses you have, the greater the chances are ...

[Rick]

Here is the A7R + Leica R 280/4 APO.

 

 

 

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[Rick]

Hi, professionally I have to make (or avoid making) legally binding statements occasionally.

 

SONY wrote that you can try your non-SONY lenses. Nothing is stated or implied about the results.

 

I did not expect more. It was the same with APS-C Fujis. Beautiful pictures with some Leica glass - but not all.

 

I shall keep my a7 and find out the optimal combinations. The more lenses you have, the greater the chances are ...

 

Listen to the video. They state that the sensor is top of the top with conventional lenses and Rf lenses.

 

But, I do agree that Sony A7 and A7R + Leica lenses, for most Leica lenses, are in no way going to come close to Leica's technology employed in their sensor + Leica lenses. That is obvious now.

 

At this point I think we all have to move on and decide for ourselves if, second party lenses outside of the Leica M catalog are going to bring enough to these Sony bodies to make them worth $2,500.

 

For me, the answer is no. The lenses I have look, by far, better on the M240. And, I learned that, I let some opinions presented here and my desire for something newer and better sway me to believe that Sony had better technology. And, that the technology was more important than the "ethos" of taking photographs.

 

I'm back to being LeicaRick for now.

[CaptZoom]

Here is the A7R + Leica R 280/4 APO.

 

 

 

[ATTACH]412867[/ATTACH]

 

I can't imagine what this file looks like uncompressed, considering how good it looks as is.

 

Might me worth considering the A7r as a digital back for this lens rather than a camera.

[Rick]

Here is the M240 + Leica R 280/4 APO. The second is just n enlarged section of the M240 shot. The M240 is also is just amazing.

 

The difference between these cameras is that when you zoom in, the A7R has the expected extra clarity. Not a lot, kind of like the difference between the M9 and the M240 shots I compared. Also, the A7R has much more purple fringe. I think that the spill over on pixels is greater or the RAW or in camera processing isn't at that point yet. I just downloaded the new LR beta (new for today) that includes something new for the A7, so maybe we will see more LR updates.

 

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Edited December 14, 2013 by RickLeica

[Rick]

Ok, this is going to blow you guys away. Here is a crop of the bottom corner of the A7R shot and I probably cropped it about 25% tighter than the crop of the shot I posted from the M240! Like I said, there is just that extra amount of detail in the A7R file that K-H will love. And, this is a corner to exemplify the A7R sensor. The A7R sensor works fine with the right lens. And, this lens is not in question, it is perfect across the whole frame on what ever camera you shoot it on!

 

 

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[MikeEvangelist]

Here is the M240 + Leica R 280/4 APO. The second is just n enlarged section of the M240 shot.

 

I'd hate to be the people waiting for the stuff that's in those crushed containers!

[Rick]

I should clear up that when I said that the R-lenses are "unbelievable" on this camera I mean the Tele lenses. I own nothing under 100mm in R-lenses. I can't comment on those R-lenses.

 

 

Actually, I own an R 50mm Summilux. It produced gorgeous pictures on the A7R. As a matter of fact this would be the 50mm lens I would get for the A7 or A7R while they are relatively cheep. I don't have anything picture-wise to post except shots at night around the house from a dinner party, and that wouldn't be fair to the guests. But, you can imagine that 50 Summilux look from a lens that may be better than the M counter part. I'd buy this lens before I'd even consider some big Sony/Zeiss 55mm/1.8. The Summilux just has that look wide open. Here is the best I can do... camera porn!

 

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Edited December 14, 2013 by RickLeica

[k-hawinkler]

Image at 14%, Sony A7R + Novoflex NEX/LER with ASTAT-NEX + Leica Vario-Elmarit-R 1:2.8-4.5/28-90 ASPH. E67 on Gitzo GT1541T + RRS BH-30 Pro.

Focus was on the facilities building at the next mesa, ISO 100, f/11, 1/20 s, focal length 90 mm, shot with 2 s delay.

 

Image at 25% http://winklers.smugmug.com/photos/i-WR3NRWJ/0/O/i-WR3NRWJ.jpg

Image at 50% http://winklers.smugmug.com/photos/i-MHrg7DH/0/O/i-MHrg7DH.jpg

Image at 100% http://winklers.smugmug.com/photos/i-G3N5RCV/0/O/i-G3N5RCV.jpg

 

Now a 100% crop.

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Hallo,

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[Rick]

Ok, extreme crop wars! How about this? (The banner has a border. It isn't a blur of the border of the banner.)

 

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