We all follow like sheep

[Guest camera man]

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Why do we all follow like sheep with Leica. My MP Film camera is just three years old and it now has a second fault! The 28mm bright line mask is NG, just having spent 3k on a new 28 Summicron lens. If the Arriflex film equipment company had so many problems with motion picture cameras the factory would have closed long ago. Bring back Nikon film cameras I say! I mean the very fact that Leica as this forum speaks volumes, it is always full of equipment problems. A bag full of lens and I cannot shoot, one more trip for the camera to Germany. I read on this forum how one member sends his camera back to Germany once every twelve months for a health check, how ridiculous is that!! I am a second year photography BA (Hon) undergrad at university. I wish I was a landscape painter! Leica not for me.

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[BrianUK]

Why do we all follow like sheep with Leica...

 

Do we? I don't.

 

Sell your Leica gear, buy a Nikon (they still make film cameras). You'll feel better.

[bill]

Quite. Baa for yourself.

 

I sympathise with your pain, and I hope you ferl better now you have it off your chest.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[250swb]

I read on this forum how one member sends his camera back to Germany once every twelve months for a health check, how ridiculous is that!!

 

I agree, totally ridiculous (unless it is a very hard used piece of professional equipment). My MP is ten years old and only went back to Leica once to have the newer sealed viewfinder installed (so dust doesn't get in), other than that I haven't needed to have it checked or serviced at all.

 

Steve

[Stealth3kpl]

It's the lenses, compact size, nice ergonomics and appearance.

I have two FM3As and they're very reliable but loud with that big slapping mirror that interupts your viewing as you press the shutter. My M2s are old friends that travel with me on holidays. They are quieter, quicker to use and take those excellent little Leica lenses. I have to admit though, I would be as peeved as you if I had to send back a 3 year old MP.

Pete

[Guest camera man]

I know what the problem is with the view finder frame lines, by placing a card over the finder you should only see the frame lines and the RF patch in the centre, if you see other lines you have light leaking into the mask for that lens. If you do this with a lens on your are able to see leakage more clear by going through the lens focus. The 28mm frame line on the left side as always been unclear but with my new 28 cron lens it is even more unclear! If you use this card test it will show you any problems that you have with the bright line finder! This should have been checked for all lens and frames by Leica on its last visit to Germany.

[hhmrogers]

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............My MP Film camera is just three years old and it now has a second fault! ................forum speaks volumes, it is always full of equipment problems..................

 

I wish I was a landscape painter! Leica not for me.

 

Sorry about your equipment hassle. I had an MP for 6 or 7 years, used it a lot but no problems. I only parted with it to buy an ME which I'm using even more. Leica film cameras are usually pretty reliable though. Another camera I use a lot is a IIIg I bought new in 1959. It's never let me down but I have had it cleaned and adjusted from time to time. Just a thought about all the traffic here. Leica enthusiasts tend to be perfectionists. If you own a beautiful piece of machinery which does let you down, despite the love and attention lavished on it, it must be hard not to take it personally.............

[CalArts 99]

Your frustration is understandable. People spend a lot of money on a mechanical film camera (or a digital electronic camera) and expect it to work for a certain period of time without issues. But I don't think people are like 'sheep.' The majority will readily point out the shortcomings of the products Leica makes. Most people just want operating cameras and lenses that work without issues. But sure, a few people do attach themselves to the brand name and will claim that Leica can do no wrong.

 

I think you can find this with a lot of brands. Just look at a Mercedes forum where you'll see lots of posts from people complaining about problems with their high priced cars, and which they expect to be perfect given the cost. And then there will be some 'sheep' who will defend the brand no matter what. I think it's just a human psychology sort of thing. Some will get frustrated since they paid big money for a product and have certain expectations, and then there are the others who prefer to deny any fallibility by the brand in order to help comfort themselves about their purchasing choices.

 

I think a Leica film camera is generally well-built and can be reliable over the long term. But it is more intricate than a Nikon F body. I've never owned a Nikon F model variant (and I've had many and still have one) develop any issues or need any repair. But I have needed Leica M servicing and repair. Although I never attributed it to any sort of bad quality but instead to a much more complex design than a Nikon F (e.g., the rangefinder.) But who knows, maybe I'm wrong to think that. Maybe Leicas aren't built that well. However, I think that they are designed quite well and with a lot of thought going into it (like many German products) despite a few well documented issues of some of the M film camera models.

 

Nonetheless, I think that most issues one reads about on this forum are primarily centered around the electronics of the digital M cameras. It seems to me that electronics are the Achilles heel of many German made goods (e.g., automobiles.) And I think in the end what really attracts people most to Leica are the optics.

[tedtrimmer]

Recommendation: Contact an expert about a Nikon F: Ming Thein takes some of the most beautiful photographs using his well maintained Nikon F1, and Bellamy Hunt at Japan Camera Finder is able to find you a good camera or alternatively provide you with a local repair person for your Leica MP. mingthein.com and japancamerahunter.com I hope your photographic horizon brightens.

[semi-ambivalent]

...despite a few well documented issues of some of the M film camera models...

 

Can you tell me what these issues are, so I can do a search on them?

 

Many thanks,

 

s-a

[pgk]

Why do we all follow like sheep with Leica..... Leica not for me.

So why post? Don't feed folks.

[CalArts 99]

Can you tell me what these issues are, so I can do a search on them?

 

Many thanks,

 

s-a

 

The issues that I know about (and only because they happened to me), but that other people have also experienced (which I learned from talking to Leica repair persons) are:

 

1) the carrier inside the rewind knob of the MP breaking and failing to rewind the film (this seems to be with the very first of the MPs and maybe is not an issue now.) It's easily repairable but not fun when it happens.

 

2) metering circuit board failing on the M6 (pre-TTL version.) This is repairable and not that expensive.

 

3) Finder separation on M3 and M2 cameras. This was due to the balsam glue that Leica used at the time. Not all will separate but there is a problem with potential separation and users should be aware that it can happen anytime. Especially with a hard knock. My M2 started to separate and then was fine for a while (it didn't interfere much with the rangefinder.) But then it decided to fully separate making it useless. This issue is camera age and the materials of that time period. But it's not an easy repair and can be more costly than the camera is worth. My understanding is that with the M3 and M2 you need to find a donor camera to replace the finder. But I think CCR Luton in the UK can repair them but it won't be cheap.

 

Other known issues (or at least documented by owners) are:

 

1) Frame counter failure. From what I was told by a Leica technician is that plastic parts were used beginning around 1996 in the frame counter. They can break.

 

2) Film advance and/or rewind failures. These seem fairly common. Sometimes it's just a piece of film stuck inside but it can be the rewind shafted getting bent inside (the canted shafts on the M4/M6/M7.) Or with film advance issues it can be shutter related.

 

3) Shutter curtain issues. e.g., shutter curtain brake failures. Brake adjustments can often fix that (i.e., when it's a brake adjustment problem and not shutter failure.) I'm not sure what the shutter cycle rating is on the M cameras (?) But I think overall the shutters are pretty robust (providing you don't put a hole in them with bright sunlight, etc..)

 

4) Dark stripe issue at high shutter speeds. I think that pertains to the above.

 

7) M7 ISO dial and/or meter circuitry. Also DX electrical contact issues.

 

The M4-2 seems to be a model that has more failures than others. Although I'm sure there are plenty of owners who have never had issues. The Cameraquest website has info on each Leica M and issues about them. And so does Andrew Nemeth's Leica FAQ website.

 

But of course pretty much any M film camera issue that might happen (except the finder separation) can be repaired by a skilled repair person. And given the age of many film M cameras, it can be expected to have some kind of service at some point. I don't personally see them as 'fatal issues' other than one should be aware of certain things when buying a used M. And I also think it's to be somewhat expected with a camera that is designed as intricately and precisely as the M film camera (?)

 

fwiw, I once bought a very early Nikon F (w/prism finder) that was stamped 'Nippon Kogaku' and which I believe was one of the Nikon F cameras built in 1960 (and according to its serial number.) It was pretty beat up and I paid 75 USD for it in 1985. I used it for around 12 years with no issues and no repair or any service. It was very solid but also seemed relatively simple in design. None of the Nikon F models that I have owned have ever needed repair. But that doesn't necessarily mean they don't have certain issues. One issue that does come to mind is the LCD (liquid display readout) failure on the F3/F3HP, although mine never failed.

 

I'm definitely no expert whatsoever but these are just things I picked up along the way when getting my own M cameras (M4 and M6) serviced and repaired. I'm sure that other people here can add a lot more or point out the things I've said that they feel may be incorrect.

[MarkP]

I sympathize. This is very frustrating. Most of us have had frustrating experiences with Leica at some time or another - I've had my fair share.

 

And unlike most luxury car repairs (see above) Leica repairs take much longer adding to the exasperation. The delays getting equipment back exasperate me far more than the fact that things sometimes go wrong.

 

However, I left a film Nikon system (with AI-S primes) for Leica and would not look back even though the Nikons were indestructable. I had an F3/T for 24 years with only one problem whicxh I caused. I also had an FM and FE2 which never faltered. All of these cameras were used and abused.

 

Then I bought an M9 and started using Leica lenses for the first time - needless to say my entire Nikon collection was gone within days.

[semi-ambivalent]

The issues that I know about (and only because they happened to me), but that other people have also experienced (which I learned from talking to Leica repair persons) are:...

 

Cal,

 

Thanks for the lengthy response! Most of these issues to me appear to be nothing more than age related failures and the inevitable mass-production human screw-up, amplified by Leica's complexity. I'm not dismissing your information, just saying it's not enough to dissuade me from using Leica from here on out. (But, when I use Leica, I will not expect to see angels.)

 

My Nikons have always served me well but there is something different about Leica lenses, and the rangefinder workflow is different enough that it has taken me several months to develop an auto-pilot mode similar to what I had with SLRs. It's new and fresh and, yes, frustrating. And I'm not going "back".

 

thanks again for the info,

 

s-a

[CalArts 99]

Cal,

 

Thanks for the lengthy response! Most of these issues to me appear to be nothing more than age related failures and the inevitable mass-production human screw-up, amplified by Leica's complexity. I'm not dismissing your information, just saying it's not enough to dissuade me from using Leica from here on out. (But, when I use Leica, I will not expect to see angels.)

 

My Nikons have always served me well but there is something different about Leica lenses, and the rangefinder workflow is different enough that it has taken me several months to develop an auto-pilot mode similar to what I had with SLRs. It's new and fresh and, yes, frustrating. And I'm not going "back".

 

thanks again for the info,

 

s-a

 

Yeah, it wasn't meant to dissuade anybody. And as I had hoped to suggest, some of it is age related as you say. I also attribute some of it to design and build complexity. It's kind of like German cars which do tend to need more TLC than a Japanese car. I have had Nikons as old as a film M and with nothing ever going wrong with them. But not with Leica. And my short romance with a fussy M9 prompted me to sell the camera and stay away from electronic Leicas at least for now.

 

And some of the issues with the film Ms did have to do with cost cutting during certain periods.

 

I do prefer rangefinders overall but for me they can't completely replace the SLR for certain situations. But the optics are the big attraction to Leica; small lenses with unique qualities. However, there are some Nikkor legacy lenses that are just as good, imho. It's only that they aren't as consistent across their entire product line. Lenses like the 28mm 2.8 CRC AIS (which focuses incredibly close), and the 50mm 1.2 AIS (which is soft and dream-like at 1.2 and yet exceptionally sharp at all other apertures with creamy looking OOF.) Also the 105mm 2.5 AIS. Those lenses are partly what keeps me still holding on to a Nikon film camera. And they work really well with a digital D600 or D800E. I think they're probably even better than the current AF-S G auto focus lenses.

 

With film Ms pretty much any needed repairs and servicing can be done with skilled people like Don Goldberg (DAG) or Sherry Krauter (Golden Touch) and other craftspeople around the globe. I have no concerns personally with the film Ms and I trust them when I'm using them. But when something does stop working it's frustrating and so I understand the OP's disappointment.

[jdlaing]

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[newtorf]

I have been a Leica user since August 2011, and here are a list of problems I've encountered so far:

 

. MP curtain was broken

. M6 TTL film advance was jammed

. M6 TTL curtain had light leakage

. M4 needed CLA due to shutter problem

. 35 cron lost focus tab

. 50 cron aperture ring became loose

 

I do not believe the myth that Leica camera/lens have better quality any longer.

[jankap]

I am Leica user since 1959. No problems so far.

Jan

 

PS

Wish, I could have started with an M instead of a IIIf.

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Hallo,

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[aesop]

I am Leica user since 1959. No problems so far.

Jan

 

PS

Wish, I could have started with an M instead of a IIIf.

 

 

...same, Jan - only since 1986.

[Leicastudi]

I agree. But still, I didn't buy a Leica for its toughness. In some way, it is a more "fragile" system, but there's an unmatched photographic experience I love Leica for. If I went to Alaska or the desert, I'd sure bring a practicably indestructible Nikon D700 or newer and a nearly waterproof lens like the 24-70.