Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario

[satureyes]

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Even current DSLR users apart from the high end pros are not in the mindset to spend more than 500 pounds on a lens. They just won't spend 3500 on a 35 lux.

Most will not want manual focus or exposure either.

 

I think a 24-70 fixed zoom, or possibly a sort of tri elmar?.

ISO maxing out at a very useable 8000 and full frame. Aperture 1.4 to 2.8 at the 70mm end.

 

I just think we are too hell bent on trying to shoehorn in M lenses etc but the truth is they are not s mass market item. Consumers won't wait 6 months for a lens and a spare battery. We are too blinkered here.

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[jjb]

Fun discussion! .

 

I think the fundamental questions are whether the Mini M will be an interchangeable lens model, and what size/resolution sensor it will offer (FF, APS, other).

 

My recollection is that their management said last year they cannot keep up with lens demand as it is, much less add the rumored EVIL system camera (at Photokina, Sep 12). If that's still true, then perhaps this new Mini M has a permanent-mount lens.

 

Whatever they launch in this price range, they need to consider the competition over the next 2-3 years as there will doubtless be some very competitive new FF and APS models, likely at a lower price. Leica always features classic design and great build quality, but at what price does the market defect to lower priced competitive offerings from Sony, Fuji, and the others?

 

I am also interested in whether Leica uses this launch to re-set it lineup/pricing. Can the M-E and X2 continue at their price points?

[Guest]

Do any of you futurists, wannabe designers and marketers believe Leica is not reading this thread with a sense of profound fremdschämen?

 

God save us from LUF.

 

.

 

 

Reminds me to always double-check google-translate.

Good thing it was neither Schadenfreude nor fremdgehen that software was suggesting to you.

[trylab]

I do not require a lot of Mini Leica M, except that it can replace my NEX6, my X1 and my preordered Blackmagic Design Pocket Cinema Camera.

A small FF Leica, Form Factor or Full Frame, I let Leica decide.

And I keep my M9P.

[Lee Martin]

Nice idea. The Contax T3 is the only of my cameras I regret having sold.

 

Do any of you futurists, wannabe designers and marketers believe Leica is not reading this thread with a sense of profound fremdschämen?

 

God save us from LUF.

 

.

I'm not sure what you mean, I think it relates to some form of group shame or embarrassment ? If so who would that relate to ? It's a discussion forum !! Leica need to listen to customers needs and wants. If people stop handing over money it rather changes things. They havent always been able to make people wait months to hand over huge sums of money when they could actually deliver products. I think I read they were on the verge of bankruptcy once?

That's easy enough to revisit

[AlanG]

A camera with a permanently attached zoom as others have suggested is certainly possible and useful. But assuming this has an APS sensor and a nice built in EVF, why not have interchangeable lenses?

 

I can't see how Leica can ignore the trend towards the M4/3rds, Nex, etc. since those cameras are being embraced even by "serious" photographers. And I feel the removable EVF design adds too much bulk. So I think the Nex 6 and 7 point the way for many others to follow much in the same way as the early Leicas did. The M design may have quite a future but will always be a niche product. If they want to grow they have little choice but to go EVIL and most likely APS... possibly subcontract a fair amount of the manufacturing.

[jaapv]

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Do any of you futurists, wannabe designers and marketers believe Leica is not reading this thread with a sense of profound fremdschämen?

 

God save us from LUF.

 

.

I doubt it - it is a triumph of viral marketing.

[Jeff S]

Do any of you futurists...

 

 

Including your own resolute prognostication regarding full frame.

 

I suspect the marketers too busy rolling on the floor.

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

Or celebrating

[NJH]

A camera with a permanently attached zoom as others have suggested is certainly possible and useful. But assuming this has an APS sensor and a nice built in EVF, why not have interchangeable lenses?

 

Because you can design it to use a leaf shutter in the lens itself and put the rear element right up in front of the sensor, and hence design the microlenses on the sensor especially to work with this one lens. This is how the X100 is designed, most of the lens you can't see as its inside the body of the camera.

 

A 4/3rds sized sensor would also be more sensible as it allows a much smaller lens than APS-C which is why the Canon G-1X had a sensor which was more or less 4/3rds.

[anupmc]

Can the moderators setup a separate forum section for the mini M please?

 

(.... just kidding ... thought I'd preempt the dozen or so posts we'll get requesting that)

[zlatkob]

Fun discussion! .

 

I agree ... it is fun! It's fun to hear what people are thinking and it does make the forum lively. Nothing wrong with being a pretend futurist, wannabe designer or marketer.

 

It is notable that the official page linked in post #1 refers to the Mini "M" with the "M" in quotes. So it is quite possible that the M connection is not meant literally. It might just look like a Mini M.

[paulsydaus]

My guess:

 

Full frame sensor

No LCD

High def EVF

M lens mount

No viewfinder

Wifi

$4000

 

 

With no LCD or Viewfinder, how are you supposed to frame a shot!? Now that's taking point and shoot to the extreme!

 

EDIT: I see now you said EVF, my bad...

[ALD]

It will be Austin powers favourite camera

[AlanG]

Because you can design it to use a leaf shutter in the lens itself and put the rear element right up in front of the sensor, and hence design the microlenses on the sensor especially to work with this one lens. This is how the X100 is designed, most of the lens you can't see as its inside the body of the camera.

 

A 4/3rds sized sensor would also be more sensible as it allows a much smaller lens than APS-C which is why the Canon G-1X had a sensor which was more or less 4/3rds.

 

You can have a leaf shutter and also have interchangeable lenses. many cameras have had this. Besides a focal plane shutter is not very thick. It was the mirror in SLRs that limited this. Pretty soon shutters may be unnecessary.

 

BTW the Sony 16-50 lens is very light and small and it collapses. I first thought the barrel distortion at the wide end was a problem and often corrected it. Then I noticed that in some photos... particularly ones where a person's head was near the corner, it looked better uncorrected as the head did not get so stretched out.

[Einst_Stein]

My guess it will be Leica Z1,

 

APS_C sensor with built-in zoom lens.

35-70mm f4? (35mm equivalent).

[MarkP]

Can the moderators setup a separate forum section for the mini M please?

 

(.... just kidding ... thought I'd preempt the dozen or so posts we'll get requesting that)

 

Not if it's designed for interchangeable M-mount lenses

[MarkP]

If the M-mini proves to be FF and accept M-mount lenses, then depending on the final specs and price, it may still make the M9/M9P/ME a bargain for quality & features.

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[Guest willjanurgucken2000]

SONY and cams powered by SONY engineering (including Ricoh, Nikon, Oly) are threatening to eat Leica's lunch when they are fully tooled up for fullframe next year.

 

The RX1 was the warning shot across the bows. Even the Leica Rumors guy has defected.

 

Playing with APS-C mirrorless is merely jumping into the shark-tank along with all the other bottom-feeders. The tendency in the mirrorless APSC market will be toward consolidation not product differentiation.

 

Existing RF users are very well served with the 240. Leica need to press the advantages of having fullframe sensor and fullframe lens-line, with an EVF capable software stack. With Leica brand prestige a M mirrorless would win a new market.

[captain]

A camera with a permanently attached zoom as others have suggested is certainly possible and useful. But assuming this has an APS sensor and a nice built in EVF, why not have interchangeable lenses?

 

I can't see how Leica can ignore the trend towards the M4/3rds, Nex, etc. since those cameras are being embraced even by "serious" photographers. And I feel the removable EVF design adds too much bulk. So I think the Nex 6 and 7 point the way for many others to follow much in the same way as the early Leicas did. The M design may have quite a future but will always be a niche product. If they want to grow they have little choice but to go EVIL and most likely APS... possibly subcontract a fair amount of the manufacturing.

 

I agree. All the talk on it being a full frame sensor is wishful thinking. Leica arent going to build a smaller full frame digital that will take away sales from their own M series cameras with full frame. They tried that with the CL in the 70's and look where that got them, I think they have learnt from there mistakes. It has to be a built in EVF crop camera just like the Fuji or Nex. People are saying why would they try compete with the big names of Fuji and Sony? Because its better than competing against yourself with another full frame sensor camera. Fuji has proven their X Trans sensor can deliver Full Frame Performance. The NEX is quite poor with M lenses and the Fuji only Mediocre with corner smearing or magenta edges. A m compatible 1.5 crop sensor with a X Trans Phase detection sensor with full focus confirmation would be a camera that has a market. With the range of slower Leica lenses being remotely accessible and the other cheaper M lens offerings and even adapted R lenses there is a market for a camera like this. The Ricoh GX-R with a12 module has proven this. Unlike most other manufacturers Leica has an interest in the secondhand lens market as it allows a cycle for users to upgrade to their newer lenses. When secondhand prices are high to help fund and upgrade there is less hesitation to resell lenses to the newer ones as such stimulating sales indirectly. If secondhand lenses had little value most would hang onto them and not upgrade. So too knowing that lenses hold their value so much people are often more likely to make the investment. How many times have you heard people say try that Leica lens if you dont like it you wont loose much money on it. A cheaper entry M mount camera will probably not get alot of direct new lens sales but it will keep the value up on secondhand ones that perpetuate the cycle for others too upgrade. Its been said they can meet current production targets but their new factory will enable them to do just that.