StephenPatterson Posted May 24, 2013 Share #261 Posted May 24, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I do not expect something else than FF from Leica. Even in the next X(3). From a production cost standpoint there is very little difference between an APC-C sensor and a full frame sensor. Sure you can get more APS-C chips on a wafer, but the bulk of the cost is in packaging the sensor, and for this the differences are negligible. Of course marketing considerations and product differentiation is another matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 24, 2013 Posted May 24, 2013 Hi StephenPatterson, Take a look here Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
swamiji Posted May 24, 2013 Share #262 Posted May 24, 2013 Well if this camera will replace the M-E in the Leica line up, shouldn't it be called Mini Me, and the motto should be "You complete me"? I am pretty sure this camera had been in development for a long time, and any speculation is purely academic. Save the sales hype... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted May 24, 2013 Share #263 Posted May 24, 2013 From a production cost standpoint there is very little difference between an APC-C sensor and a full frame sensor. Sure you can get more APS-C chips on a wafer, but the bulk of the cost is in packaging the sensor, and for this the differences are negligible. Of course marketing considerations and product differentiation is another matter. While that's true, it's also cheaper to take parts from existing cameras than to develop all new parts, as such I would expect the internals to be not that different from the M240, maybe even the same firmware... Where the size and cost savings come from the loss of the rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted May 24, 2013 Share #264 Posted May 24, 2013 Well if this camera will replace the M-E in the Leica line up, shouldn't it be called Mini Me, and the motto should be "You complete me"?. excellent you miss your true vocation "The difficulty with this conversation is that it's very different from most of the ones I've had of late. Which, as I explained, have mostly been with trees." - Douglas Adams Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted May 24, 2013 Share #265 Posted May 24, 2013 Leica must have had to keep this announcement really hush-hush for several reasons. It's a direct shot at their competitors (Sony, Fuji etc.). It required a complete rework of electronics, some of which were introduced into the M240. It needed new manufacturing capacity. It targets new market segments and people who cannot wait for supply to catch up, hence it could not be announced at Photokina. While it's made in Germany by Leica, I suspect many of the internals could come from a broadened partnership with Olympus as the latter has clearly demonstrated leadership in several areas, notable in IBIS and autofocus. I still think this will be a full-frame to best leverage existing M lenses which are now widely available due to production ramp-up. This product would be ready to roll very quickly, I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted May 24, 2013 Share #266 Posted May 24, 2013 While it's made in Germany by Leica, I suspect many of the internals could come from a broadened partnership with Olympus. Whilst I don't think so, I'll play along here. Olympus is bust and is being supported by Sony, who is determining whether to absorb it whole or not. Leica build & lenses, Sony sensors and Olympus AF ? some would say a match made in Heaven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted May 24, 2013 Share #267 Posted May 24, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) And if it happens to be a cropped sensor, fixed focal length lens, no viewfinder, poor high-ISO camera for more composed and considered photography it will also be competing against the extraordinary sub-$1000 Sigma Foveon DP1, DP2 and DP3 Merrills. But I would think that the M-mini would be FF and accept M-mount lenses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted May 24, 2013 Share #268 Posted May 24, 2013 Whilst I don't think so, I'll play along here.Olympus is bust and is being supported by Sony, who is determining whether to absorb it whole or not. Leica build & lenses, Sony sensors and Olympus AF ? some would say a match made in Heaven Leica has already made investments in design and manufacture of FF sensors. They will most certainly not use other brands. Plus they will need design control here. Use of a FF sensor in the Mini M is a no-brainer as this is what will give Leica the technology edge and they are already proven in the M240 (software aside). What Leica lacks is a good video implementation which is must for premium mass market. For this to happen processor needs to be upgraded and IBIS implemented as Leica lenses today don't have in-lens stabilization. Olympus is a wild card. Since they are not a competitor to Leica (firm commitment to M43) they could be a partner. And they are not likely to go out of business anytime soon. (Their primary business is imaging and they have cleaned house following their scandal. They are also moving away from low cost cameras, due to losing market share to mobile phones.) Leica needs to collaborate in electronics as they don't have a strong R&D focus here and other companies are well ahead of the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest willjanurgucken2000 Posted May 24, 2013 Share #269 Posted May 24, 2013 Using an APS-C would be a tremendous mistake in my opinion. In the last couple of years, an M-mount EVF APS-C camera has already come and gone - namely the Ricoh GXR + M Module. Folks interested in M lenses with EVF have already adopted the NEX, Ricoh or Fuji. Not to mention that the APS-C market for mirrorless is more saturated right now than the market for DSLRs. Leica have an absolute advantage in having developed a fullframe sensor that plays well with their own lens line up. Conversely SONY released the RX1 as a fixed lens camera rather than ILS as many wanted because they don't have the required lenses (A-mount are not small, and E-mount are not fullframe). Leica needs to play to it's strengths. I don't believe in the canabalization story. Theoretically, better product differentation ought to permit Leica to extract higher premiums by better targeted consumer preferences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
antoniocuc Posted May 24, 2013 Share #270 Posted May 24, 2013 It will be the X2 with a zoom!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmuck Posted May 24, 2013 Share #271 Posted May 24, 2013 … but as the “M” in “Leica M” stands for “Messsucher” (Rangefinder), removing the rangefinder would be sort of … well. Weird? Hrm. Well the M1 didn't have a rangefinder ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelToye Posted May 24, 2013 Share #272 Posted May 24, 2013 Are we sure it won't be a X100-alike with RF system? probably 2/3 the price of a new M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted May 24, 2013 Share #273 Posted May 24, 2013 What I would buy: An M240 or similar spec sensor with M interchangeable mount, with an EVF window instead of a rangefinder, in a smaller than M240 body - say something RX-1 sized, and at a cost of around 3250 Euros.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_w Posted May 24, 2013 Share #274 Posted May 24, 2013 I think they need to slim the camera down relative to the M to be able to call it mini. That would mean a high probability of a cropped (CMOSIS?) sensor, dedicated (AF?) lenses and the M lenses on an adapter of a certain thickness with a focussing linkage. Are cropped 1.3 sensors still made in sufficient commercial quantities for Leica to draw upon a reliable source of supply? I can't think of any current cameras that use the APS-H format these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierovitch Posted May 24, 2013 Share #275 Posted May 24, 2013 Accept the obvious Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205247-mini-m-merged-aka-x-vario/?do=findComment&comment=2329433'>More sharing options...
krooj Posted May 24, 2013 Share #276 Posted May 24, 2013 ^^ Pretty much If this mini M does away with the rangefinder mechanism and replaces it with an EVF, then _everything_ hinges on that EVF. The best EVF I've used to date are in the NEX 7/6 cameras. All others have left me cold: they have low resolutions, bad refresh rates with smearing, and are, on the whole, terrible. Leica ought to understand this, and hopefully they source the very, very best EVF they can find if it has to be internal. If it's external, then perhaps a guarantee that the thing can be upgraded over time, as EVF tech matures. Hopefully the interface is somewhat of an industry standard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musa Posted May 24, 2013 Share #277 Posted May 24, 2013 Exciting times! War Photographer http://www.musachowdhury.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 24, 2013 Share #278 Posted May 24, 2013 say something RX-1 sized, and at a cost of around 3250 Euros.... Not my bag but I can see such a camera having wide appeal. However, if it shares most of the DNA of the M 240 (rather than the X2) I can't see it retailing for €3250. It's a Leica and apparently 'made in Germany'. I think we need to think closer to £4000 (the latest RRP of the M-E is £4200 and that's cobbled together from old M9 parts). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted May 24, 2013 Share #279 Posted May 24, 2013 Hmmm.... Big rumor: Panasonic revives the L1 and makes a hell of a MFT camera out of it! | Mirrorless Rumors ...I don't believe in coincidence. Apart from the confusion between the unloved L1 and the much loved LC1 this may give us a clue... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appmax Posted May 24, 2013 Share #280 Posted May 24, 2013 My guess: Full frame sensor No LCD High def EVF M lens mount No viewfinder Wifi $4000 It can be thin..the extra depth to fit a full frame LCD is roughly 5mm versus the lens to sensor distance for an APS sensor. Adding that depth and removing the LCD, can lead to a full frame camera thinner than the Nex 7. With wifi, thou can see pictures on your phone - no need for LCD. Hard core Leica M fans won't like the lack of rangefinder optical viewfinder. But those hard core folks can buy the full size M. Many other photographers will be fine with the EVF. Leica could introduce an EVF algorithm that would emulate the rangefinder experience with a peak focusing variant. I hope Leica goes down this route. If they do, I'm in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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