lct Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1901 Posted June 12, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) ....If I wanted a high quality zoom, I'd go for an M(240) with one of those fine Vario-Elmarit-R lenses, and I'd live with the size. Expensive, but I'd rather compromise size than image quality... The 30 fps of the M240 will hardly compete with the 60 fps of the X107 i'm afraid unless you intend to shoot still subjects with a still camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Hi lct, Take a look here Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1902 Posted June 12, 2013 The 30 fps of the M240 will hardly compete with the 60 fps of the X107 i'm afraid unless you intend to shoot still subjects with a still camera. Not even remotely interested in frame rates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1903 Posted June 12, 2013 Thanks, John. That was useful. I have already scratched the RX1 off my list - when I held it, the body design was just too cramped to grip comfortably, and I had no idea where my two bottom fingers were supposed to go. The body balance was also off due to the large lens, and also because of that large lens it is no more pocketable than the X Vario is going to be (we don't typically wear coats or jackets in warm and humid Malaysia). The X1 body design was better, although I felt it was too light and too slippery, and it actually slipped twice from me, causing a dent. My friend uses his with the grip and it does make a difference while giving it more heft to boot, but then there's still that matter of an extending lens. I just dislike cameras that need to extend its lens upon switching on, it delays the operation just that much further. According to reviews, the X Vario has the same body design as the X1, which has about the same width and thickness as an M, but with more height. If it is indeed the same thickness as a film M then it should also be easier for me to grip 'cos that is what I am used to. My "finger memory" just couldn't adjust to the M8 no matter what I did... I used the Digilux 2 exclusively for 2 years and the main complaint I had with it was also the thickness, but at least it was light so my small hands could get a better hold of it. Too bad about the size of that Vario lens, though. I looked for the specs but have not been able to find it. I was hoping it would be E46. But if it's E55 at the most I can still live with it since I had a 90mm Summicron on my M6TTL once and that was all I could afford so I shot that combo for more than a year. So it sounds as if size is less of an issue? Or at least, a bit like Goldilocks and the three bears, it has to be just right ... For me, my M cameras are just the right size (I am very used to them, and switching from large film cameras, returning to a small format was a joy), and the lenses are fantastic. So why was I looking at the Mini? Well, as others have said, it's part GAS, and it's part to get away from the decision between M9-P or Monochrom, one lens or two (or more), just the 50? (love the 50s I have) or take the 90 too? (it's tack sharp and easy to use, and reasonably compact) 28-50-90? but the 75/1.4 has that special rendering, and doesn't get out enough ... and so it goes on. But, a compact full frame with a useful AF kit zoom and M mount, CMOSIS sensor (with video) would get an outing. I'm passing on my NEX to my son because I'm just not happy with the image quality compared to the M cameras - and there's the quandary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1904 Posted June 12, 2013 Not even remotely interested in frame rates. Not only a matter of frame rate but motion blur in the finder image when the camera or the subject moves in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1905 Posted June 13, 2013 Ah, of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1906 Posted June 13, 2013 If you are referring to the Vario X zoom lens' filter size it is 43mm dunk Woh. That's... not bad at all. It's the girth of my 35mm Biogon-C. I can certainly live with a longer version of that! Hmm. My regular "pusher" hasn't got one in stock yet. Web images skews the perspective, then... in reality the X Vario lens might be just about the size of my 75mm Summarit, hopefully. Nice! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1907 Posted June 13, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) So it sounds as if size is less of an issue? Or at least, a bit like Goldilocks and the three bears, it has to be just right ... Exactly! Haha. I am picky about size, it has to be the right combination of dimensions, heft and magic pixie dust. The best small camera I have owned in recent years is the Ricoh GXR with A12 mount. The handling is just superb. Some people say that camera is ugly, but to me it's functional. So yes, for travel I wouldn't mind something a bit bigger. I tend to carry 2 cameras: the M6 with 28mm Elmarit is the compact combo inside a belt pouch for quick snapshots, the other camera (it's been an M4-P with either 50mm or 75mm lens) sits inside my pack. I can see the X Vario replacing that with a more versatile focal length to boot. Will need a faster prime then, though, so maybe it's time to upgrade to the 28mm Summicron. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1908 Posted June 13, 2013 Well, as others have said, it's part GAS, and it's part to get away from the decision between M9-P or Monochrom, one lens or two (or more), just the 50? (love the 50s I have) or take the 90 too? (it's tack sharp and easy to use, and reasonably compact) 28-50-90? but the 75/1.4 has that special rendering, and doesn't get out enough ... and so it goes on. I totally agree with that. When I started out with the Digilux 2 I didn't find the need to upgrade lenses or get new ones. But once I bought into the M system... boy. I have every focal length from 28mm to 90mm and I don't have time to use them all, and I find changing lenses in the field fiddly and bothersome. So am hoping the X Vario would put a stop to that, too. I *almost* bought the V-Lux 4, but I think this might be better still if I like how it feels. I prefer cameras with lenses that have "proper" focusing rings, so the D-Lux is out. Had the D-Lux 3 once, never got used to the joystick thingy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiver Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1909 Posted June 13, 2013 I totally agree with that. When I started out with the Digilux 2 I didn't find the need to upgrade lenses or get new ones. But once I bought into the M system... boy. I have every focal length from 28mm to 90mm and I don't have time to use them all, and I find changing lenses in the field fiddly and bothersome. So am hoping the X Vario would put a stop to that, too. But ... surely ... don't you know that primes are the only high quality lenses? The Leica legacy is built on their primes, and that to opt for (gasp) a ZOOM is heresy, bordering on ... sacrilege! Frankly, there are times when primes bug me due to the fiddling for lens changes. I enjoy the versatility of a high quality compact zoom, even the Fuji X10 or the Olympus EM-5 with Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8. And truth be told, I use the EM-5 just as much as the M9 these days, mostly due to the zoom. In years BL (before Leica), I used a Canon 30D and 17-55 f2.8 as my primary camera, and only got on the lens acquisition bandwagon much later. If the X Vario floats your boat, go for it. (An alternative is to have two small cameras with significantly different lenses, like a Ricoh GR and Oly EM-5 with 45/1.8!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1910 Posted June 13, 2013 But ... surely ... don't you know that primes are the only high quality lenses? The Leica legacy is built on their primes, and that to opt for (gasp) a ZOOM is heresy, bordering on ... sacrilege! Frankly, there are times when primes bug me due to the fiddling for lens changes. I enjoy the versatility of a high quality compact zoom, even the Fuji X10 or the Olympus EM-5 with Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8. And truth be told, I use the EM-5 just as much as the M9 these days, mostly due to the zoom. In years BL (before Leica), I used a Canon 30D and 17-55 f2.8 as my primary camera, and only got on the lens acquisition bandwagon much later. If the X Vario floats your boat, go for it. (An alternative is to have two small cameras with significantly different lenses, like a Ricoh GR and Oly EM-5 with 45/1.8!) I was thinking of the Ricoh GR. I like Ricohs. Their designs are not sexy, but they make a lot of sense when you use them. But my God, I need yet another new camera like I need a third leg. I was thinking/hoping the X Vario would end the madness, and make me pare my M lenses and body down to just one M film body (my beater M6), with a 28mm Summicron (which I will need to get) and either the 75mm Summarit or 90mm Summicron (which I already have). I cheat by using a 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.8 on my canon 5D. EDIT: I guess I'd like to go M6+28+75 and 5D+50+135 eventually. The 5D is far too heavy to travel with, and it makes a clanking noise that scares birds, kids and pretty women. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1911 Posted June 13, 2013 But ... surely ... don't you know that primes are the only high quality lenses? The Leica legacy is built on their primes, and that to opt for (gasp) a ZOOM is heresy, bordering on ... sacrilege! 45/1.8!) Actually what you say is mostly correct, but people like convenience. The threads about the finer points of image quality and 'sharpness' are pretty much pointless in the context of the typical way most people use their equipment and process/present the results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiver Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1912 Posted June 13, 2013 Actually what you say is mostly correct, but people like convenience. The threads about the finer points of image quality and 'sharpness' are pretty much pointless in the context of the typical way most people use their equipment and process/present the results. The irony is that I use my EM-5 for convenience and fun, but when I need 'real' image quality, I bring out the M9 and Leica and Zeiss primes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1913 Posted June 13, 2013 For a new camera with the Leica cache it doesn't appear to be selling very well since it is in stock everywhere. The market seems to by yawning. Contrast that to the RX-1 that immediately was unavailable and there were long waiting lists even though Sony production capacity is probably considerably higher than Leica. It should have sold out the first day or even before if it had offered what people wanted. Also compare that to the Fuji X100s that is still largely unavailable. I'm sure they will sell some but not in the numbers they probably hoped they would achieve. There just isn't enough going for it to make it a compelling buy at this price point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Spencer Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1914 Posted June 13, 2013 I have a vision of door-to-door-sellers prowling through rural China to sell a few Vario-X cameras and suspender girdles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1915 Posted June 13, 2013 For a new camera with the Leica cache it doesn't appear to be selling very well since it is in stock everywhere. The market seems to by yawning. Contrast that to the RX-1 that immediately was unavailable and there were long waiting lists even though Sony production capacity is probably considerably higher than Leica. It should have sold out the first day or even before if it had offered what people wanted. Also compare that to the Fuji X100s that is still largely unavailable. I'm sure they will sell some but not in the numbers they probably hoped they would achieve. There just isn't enough going for it to make it a compelling buy at this price point. HI John there's so many imponderables here: 1. you don't know how many they've shipped 2. you don't know how many they've sold 3. you don't know how many they expected to sell 4. you don't know how much it has going for it (unless you've used one). which makes this kind of negative speculation just that! Mind you, you're I'm sure they will sell some seems probable. one of my favorite dealers sold out in the first morning and now has a long waiting list - but I realise that doesn't mean anything either! Hmmm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brunom Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1916 Posted June 13, 2013 Well, amazing how many comments the Leica X2 Vario has triggered, condemning an about to be released product. I think its all about positioning and expectations. Announcing the X2 Vario as a 'Mini M' is guaranteed to cause a stir amongst the enthusiasts of the M series if the X2 Vario spec don't make the new camera as a 'real' M - which is undoubtably the case. The fact that all of this comes at a time where the new 'real' M 240 is not available and the same M enthusiast are waiting for months for their order to be delivered or any kind of information from Leica or its dealers when this might be the case just makes it worse. The X2 Vario might be a good camera though I do not understand who it is really aimed at but Leica has taken the wrong approach at the wrong time to introduce it in my opinion. As a Leica fan and Marketeer I wish Leica would be better advised when it comes to the way the company serves its customers and does its marketing / product development. Hi I think it is aimed at those that may have been thinking about buying the Hasselblad Lunacy camera. Bruno Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhluxton Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1917 Posted June 13, 2013 I must admit I do like the look of the new X-Vario in particular its chunky size. I also like its non retractable lens design. Ever since I ended up with dust on the sensor of my X1 when it was only a couple of months old I always hoped that a sucessor camera might do away with the collapsible standard lens, which only encourages dust to be pulled in. I was, needless to say, a bit disappointed when the X2 appeared with the same collapsible lens as the X1. The X-Vario offers a non-collpasible lens, however, the actual soom lens on the X-Vario appears to be of some concern, particularly its poor maximum aperture at max zoom. I wonder if Leica might consider using the body of the X-Vario to produce a more substantial version of the X2 with a fixed 35/40mm equivelent lens, perhaps with a wider aperture (f1.7?) than that that currently available on the X2? Also omit the movie mode. I am not sure that is essential for most still photographers, leaving that out could help reduce costs a bit. I don't know about others but I hardly ever use the feature on the 'Leicasonics' I own or have owned. Also why not omit the flash and fit an optical view finder. For those wanting flash a kit pack could be offered with detachable flash. Whilst I probably won't delve into my savings for this camera - I certainly would be seriously tempted to if the body and non collapsible standard lens were offered for say 15 to 20% less than the price point of this machine. What do others think? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1918 Posted June 13, 2013 For a new camera with the Leica cache it doesn't appear to be selling very well since it is in stock everywhere. Following this logic, they would be selling well if they weren't in stock, except that it they weren't in stock, they couldn't be selling....... Fascinating speculation;). I suspect that it will sell well - to its intended audience. Equally I suspect that readers of this forum are not, in the main, this intended audience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1919 Posted June 13, 2013 ... Contrast that to the RX-1 that immediately was unavailable and there were long waiting lists even though Sony production capacity is probably considerably higher than Leica. It should have sold out the first day or even before if it had offered what people wanted. Also compare that to the Fuji X100s that is still largely unavailable. ... Also contrast that with the Leica M (by Leica Camera AG, of course) which appeared to be to sold out the day after it was announced, six months before it even started appearing in shops. Only with Leica, it's an unpardonable crime that the M is sold out. It's also unpardonable that the X Vario is not sold out on its third day out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 13, 2013 Share #1920 Posted June 13, 2013 I shall say this once. I won't be buying one. I've just returned from a week in the Algarve; I took with me the new Ricoh GR. Even as a Ricoh user in the past (GXR, GRDIII) I was surprised and delighted by its performance. It is light, compact and capable of high quality results, as indeed are my Fuji cameras. The offerings from both manufacturers suit me and deliver the goods, particularly the Fuji when fitted with Leica and Zeiss glass. I feel that Leica in comparison is moving further and further away with each new product release from what I want and need in a camera. I despaired at the M8, thought the M9 was nearly there then looked on with disappointment when the M240 came out. Now this. Either I am changing in my wants and needs or Leica is offering less and less to satisfy me - I suspect a bit of both, but more the latter... Honestly, forget about the marketing fiasco - my opinion of spotty marketeers is well-known and this latest fit of fuckwittery is entirely in keeping - the real disappointment is that somebody somewhere really thinks that this thing is worthy of production. Oh I am sure it will sell - to those who know no better and who are blinded by the glare of the red dot - but it is no Leica. My overwhelming feeling right now is one of sadness. This could have gone so well. Indeed it could have gone reasonably well if they had not raised expectations so inappropriately high before releasing the family embarrassment upon an unsuspecting world. I thought the X1 and 2 were daft enough in terms of the balance of pricing, features and performance but this takes the entire barrel of biscuits. Poor show, Leica. I'm done here. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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