Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario

[stunsworth]

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Excellent point there. But f/6.4 simply does not work for my needs.

 

In which case you're better off with a different camera - stating the obvious I know.

[pgk]

Hopefully the hysteria will calm down a bit over the next few weeks and then maybe we can take a more objective view of the camera's strengths and its place in the crowded market place.

I'm not actually so sure that 'our' views are all that relevant. I have absolutely no doubt that for the vast majority of people the X-Vario will exceed expectations in terms of its ability to produce images. It is after all a Leica and the name and specifications will appeal to many able to afford a highly capable, quality camera. This may well not be a market which 'true' photographers like us are actually all that familiar with:eek:. The point I'm trying to make is that whilst this product does not appeal to me I expect that it will appeal to many who perhaps know the 'Leica' name from the past, or from binoculars, or 'scopes, and for whom a quality zoom compact will be ideal.

 

Its place in a crowded market place is unlikely (IMHO) to be one based on its image quality, after all comparative data about cameras which will all overproduce in image terms for many more casual camera users is an irrelevance don't you think? [And no I'm not being cynical - I've met too many delighted owners of Leica R cameras who bought and used them because of their name and the fact that they did deliver excellent images, even if these were never pushed as far as they could be in terms of size.]

[Ruhayat]

Could anyone who has the camera verify if the X Vario's body size (especially thickness) is about the same as a film M?

 

This is such a big deal to me, personally. It's why I sold off the Leica M8 after two months (well, because of the thickness, and the klonking sound it made), and then the X1 after just 2 weeks (slippery little thing, too light, and it has an extending lens). If the X Vario body has the same dimensions as a film M body, I'm suddenly interested in it.

[Nei1]

Pardon??

 

dunk

 

It's easy to forget where leica came from and what it's cameras are designed to achieve .A camera for the street could still emerge from this duck if it has a decent high asa performance and quick focus.If you want good bokeh and the ultimate in quality then a leica would be the last on my list.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bybrett]

"The range of focal lengths offered by the Leica X Vario opens up entirely new horizons for creative photography."

 

In that case my Nano M takes me to another planet.

[AlanG]

"The range of focal lengths offered by the Leica X Vario opens up entirely new horizons for creative photography."

 

In that case my Nano M takes me to another planet.

 

I saw images made by a friend of mine on safari using one of these at extreme magnification and they were surprisingly good.

 

20x or more: Long Zoom Cameras - Best Buy

 

Here is 50X that starts at 2.8 and only costs $450. It gets great user reviews.

 

Sony DSCHX300 20.4Megapixel Digital Camera Black DSCHX300B - Best Buy

[dwbell]

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It's easy to forget where leica came from and what it's cameras are designed to achieve .A camera for the street could still emerge from this duck if it has a decent high asa performance and quick focus.If you want good bokeh and the ultimate in quality then a leica would be the last on my list.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Ok, that was funny!

[koray]

...

 

Sony's 16-50 3.5-5.6 covers a wider range than the X Vario and is a bit faster at the long end. It also only weights 4 ounces and is very small.

 

...

 

Well I have the Sony lens. You should see the awful distortion and vignetting (in raw files) that is corrected by the in-camera algorithms. Honestly, today one can't be sure of the numbers on these lenses, too - when there are all kinds of digital trickery going on in the background. For instance, that Sony lens has so small front optics, you start questioning if the aperture value reflects the real thing.

 

K.

[barjohn]

AF appears to be marginally better than X2 which is slo..o..o..o..w. Further it appears to miss focus an unacceptable percentage of the time. This according to two reviews so far.

[jim sink]

I just bought a Mini M today. I must say that all of you that wrote negative comments about this camera should hold one in your hands. It feel like an "M" camera and is designed very well. I use big "Canon 5D mark lll's" everyday with my business and this Mini M is so refreshing to use after working with large DSLR's. Give it a chance and you may like it.

[AlanG]

Well I have the Sony lens. You should see the awful distortion and vignetting (in raw files) that is corrected by the in-camera algorithms. Honestly, today one can't be sure of the numbers on these lenses, too - when there are all kinds of digital trickery going on in the background. For instance, that Sony lens has so small front optics, you start questioning if the aperture value reflects the real thing.

 

K.

 

I have the lens too. I shoot raw + jpegs and am well aware of the barrel distortion at w/a and know how much the jpeg changes it. But I use DXO and the end result is all that matters not how they get there. The digital Ms have to do a lot of trickery on its lenses too.

 

What really surprised me since using this lens is how often the image with the distortion is better than the corrected one. This is the same reason that DXO has "Volume anamorphosis" adjustments. I have learned that "perfect" lenses do not always make a photo better than an "imperfect" one. And sometimes I leave in the vignetting or add more of it. I did shoot a lot with this lens at the ruins of Pompeii and Herculaneum and corrected the distortion on all of those.

 

The dark top corners are from a filter vignetting due to having too thick a mount. Of course the lens is a compromise. This is about the largest and heaviest camera that I would drag up a mountain or carry while skiing or cycling. The 18-55 Sony lens was too big for me and I passed on the Nex cameras until the 16-50 became available. The I think the X Vario without an EVF is comparable in size and weight to a Nex 7 with 18-55 so I would pass on it for size and weight reasons alone.

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[lct]

As Sean Reid wrote in his review, « (…) the zoom lens on the Leica X Vario is an excellent optic. Leica made a bold decision in fitting the X Vario with a high quality compact slow zoom in a market filled with fast lenses (…). But I understand that the company would rather compromise lens speed than compromise optical quality with the idea that software would try to "fix things up" afterwards. »

[AlanG]

As Sean Reid wrote in his review, « (…) the zoom lens on the Leica X Vario is an excellent optic. Leica made a bold decision in fitting the X Vario with a high quality compact slow zoom in a market filled with fast lenses (…). But I understand that the company would rather compromise lens speed than compromise optical quality with the idea that software would try to "fix things up" afterwards. »

 

I bet that lens has curvature and some other issues too.

 

As shown in my illustration above... that is a bad choice in my mind. Once you have people near the edges, the curvature improves the photos.

 

I did not buy a Nex 6 and compact zoom to replace what can be done with a full frame camera and the best primes. That said, if this camera had a replaceable lens you could choose between compact, slow, inexpensive lenses and ones that may be better in various ways. It would fulfill a wider range of needs that way. I just don't think Leica had the resources for another line of lenses and also it might adversely impact M sales if the camera and system was "too" good. So they crippled it before birth.

 

In any case if they are going to make the thing so big why not go for a faster aperture at least?

[ynp]

I went to the Moscow Leica store and they had the Vario on the shelf and some more in the stock.

 

The body fits better in my mitts than the regular X. The screen is better , the menu structured very well. The AF on the lens barrel is really clever and the manual opperation , with the magnifier patch works well.

 

I did not like the uneven stiffness of the zoom barrel, it was stiffer between ~65 and 75mm than on the shorter range. Maybe, it was a problematic demo shelf body. They have some more cameras in stock and I am going to test another body in a day or two.

 

Definitely, it is no M.

[IkarusJohn]

Could anyone who has the camera verify if the X Vario's body size (especially thickness) is about the same as a film M?

 

You'd have to make your own judgment on that, I suspect.

 

I went into the local Leica shop yesterday, and had the X-Vario and RX-1 in my hands - both the same price, and the camera shop was basically offering them as alternatives. RX-1 small, X-Vario huge by comparison.

 

The X-Vario appears only a bit smaller than the M cameras. Looking at the X2, the X-Vario and the M-E they had on the shelves, the new camera is closer in size (to my eye) to the M Camera than to the X2. But that is a comparison fraught with complications. How we see things in comparison is not often empirical. The killer (if size is your issue) is the size of that lens - it's huge compared to the X2, the RX-1 and an M camera with a compact lens like a 28 Summicron, or even a 50 Lux.

 

As I said above - size and build quality (and probably image quality) the RX-1 wins hands down. But, it has that awful Sony menu system and lots of other flaws. I'm still considering it, with a microphone mounted on the hotshoe for the odd video (my daughter playing cello etc) - it's a useful camera.

 

To be honest, the X-Vario doesn't look useful to me - as I'm inevitably comparing it to my M9-P with a nice Leica M mount lens. If I wanted a high quality zoom, I'd go for an M(240) with one of those fine Vario-Elmarit-R lenses, and I'd live with the size. Expensive, but I'd rather compromise size than image quality.

 

For the X-Vario size, my Ms have the image quality. If I want something pocketable, the RX-1 will be my choice.

 

The X-Vario wouldn't get a look in.

 

Cheers

John

[dkCambridgeshire]

I bet that lens has curvature and some other issues too.

 

As shown in my illustration above... that is a bad choice in my mind. Once you have people near the edges, the curvature improves the photos.

 

I did not buy a Nex 6 and compact zoom to replace what can be done with a full frame camera and the best primes. That said, if this camera had a replaceable lens you could choose between compact, slow, inexpensive lenses and ones that may be better in various ways. It would fulfill a wider range of needs that way. I just don't think Leica had the resources for another line of lenses and also it might adversely impact M sales if the camera and system was "too" good. So they crippled it before birth.

 

In any case if they are going to make the thing so big why not go for a faster aperture at least?

 

Please wait and see what the reviews say ... or check previous test results of other Leica zoom lenses eg the 28-90mm R before posting unjustified wishful thinking opinions.

 

dunk

[AlanG]

Please wait and see what the reviews say ...

dunk

 

I did.

 

"Distortion also appears to be well controlled, with just slight barrelling being noticeable with close-to linear subjects at the 28mm end of the lens.

 

Scrutinising images with high contrast edges reveals that chromatic aberrations are well controlled, with just a suggestion being visible here and there. It doesn't look like we will be finding any major issues with it when we test the camera more thoroughly."

 

So they saw this on casual examination.

[Peter L]

I should have the Leica Vario X here the day after tomorrow, in spite of some of the negative comments here and 90% negative comments on other websites.

My decision is based on the excellent IQ of my X2, I expect this Vario X to be an improved

X2 with a very usable zoom, the layout of the functions and menus is superb as you can see in this video:

 

New Leica X Vario review - YouTube

 

I am very excited to work with this Vario X, and oh , the price , yes it is high but less than most of Leica's lenses.

 

In the end , I can keep the camera for 2 weeks and if not satisfied return it to The Camera Store in Calgary.

[Ruhayat]

The X-Vario appears only a bit smaller than the M cameras. Looking at the X2, the X-Vario and the M-E they had on the shelves, the new camera is closer in size (to my eye) to the M Camera than to the X2.

 

Thanks, John. That was useful. I have already scratched the RX1 off my list - when I held it, the body design was just too cramped to grip comfortably, and I had no idea where my two bottom fingers were supposed to go. The body balance was also off due to the large lens, and also because of that large lens it is no more pocketable than the X Vario is going to be (we don't typically wear coats or jackets in warm and humid Malaysia).

 

The X1 body design was better, although I felt it was too light and too slippery, and it actually slipped twice from me, causing a dent. My friend uses his with the grip and it does make a difference while giving it more heft to boot, but then there's still that matter of an extending lens. I just dislike cameras that need to extend its lens upon switching on, it delays the operation just that much further.

 

According to reviews, the X Vario has the same body design as the X1, which has about the same width and thickness as an M, but with more height. If it is indeed the same thickness as a film M then it should also be easier for me to grip 'cos that is what I am used to. My "finger memory" just couldn't adjust to the M8 no matter what I did... I used the Digilux 2 exclusively for 2 years and the main complaint I had with it was also the thickness, but at least it was light so my small hands could get a better hold of it.

 

Too bad about the size of that Vario lens, though. I looked for the specs but have not been able to find it. I was hoping it would be E46. But if it's E55 at the most I can still live with it since I had a 90mm Summicron on my M6TTL once and that was all I could afford so I shot that combo for more than a year.

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[dkCambridgeshire]

Thanks, John. That was useful. I have already scratched the RX1 off my list - when I held it, the body design was just too cramped to grip comfortably, and I had no idea where my two bottom fingers were supposed to go. The body balance was also off due to the large lens, and also because of that large lens it is no more pocketable than the X Vario is going to be (we don't typically wear coats or jackets in warm and humid Malaysia).

 

The X1 body design was better, although I felt it was too light and too slippery, and it actually slipped twice from me, causing a dent. My friend uses his with the grip and it does make a difference while giving it more heft to boot, but then there's still that matter of an extending lens. I just dislike cameras that need to extend its lens upon switching on, it delays the operation just that much further.

 

According to reviews, the X Vario has the same body design as the X1, which has about the same width and thickness as an M, but with more height. If it is indeed the same thickness as a film M then it should also be easier for me to grip 'cos that is what I am used to. My "finger memory" just couldn't adjust to the M8 no matter what I did... I used the Digilux 2 exclusively for 2 years and the main complaint I had with it was also the thickness, but at least it was light so my small hands could get a better hold of it.

 

Too bad about the size of that Vario lens, though. I looked for the specs but have not been able to find it. I was hoping it would be E46. But if it's E55 at the most I can still live with it since I had a 90mm Summicron on my M6TTL once and that was all I could afford so I shot that combo for more than a year.

 

If you are referring to the Vario X zoom lens' filter size it is 43mm

 

dunk