dwbell Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1861 Posted June 12, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) "There's no getting away from the fact that the Leica X Vario is a very expensive camera. But in the same way the Bugatti doesn't set out to compete with popular cars such as the VW Golf, Leica doesn't make cameras to compete with mainstream models. Leica is an exclusive brand. It will be interesting to see how the Leica faithful respond to the Leica X Vario, especially given its Mini M billing and 18-46mm f/3.5-6.4 zoom lens. You don't expect lots of mod cons with a Leica camera, you expect a high standard of design and construction and superb image quality. On the face of it the Leica X Vario seems to deliver it, but we need to test it further to be certain." Hands on: Leica X Vario review | Compact cameras Reviews | TechRadar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Hi dwbell, Take a look here Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dwbell Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1862 Posted June 12, 2013 I'll stop there, but I think somewhere between "underwhelmed" and "disappointed" is a fair summary of the initial reports I've read. This just as a corollary to the suggestion that it's kids on facebook joining a hate club for fun. None of these review sites could be the market for this camera either, only sales will tell us the true story. However, these reviews and general "internet opinion" shouldn't be underestimated when it comes to consumer or indeed seller purchase/sell choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1863 Posted June 12, 2013 Reading Sean Reid's and Jono Slack's reviews might help a bit more IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1864 Posted June 12, 2013 Reading Sean Reid's and Jono Slack's reviews might help a bit more IMHO. Yep, I think outright IQ will make up for a lot. But my personal opinion is there's a a lot to make up for when looking at usability etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1865 Posted June 12, 2013 OK, we have understood, (1600 posts at least) Leica made a dumb product. Moderators, Isn't it the time to close this thread?? Threads are (should) only be closed if they become offensive, libellous or potentially illegal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1866 Posted June 12, 2013 Well, I for one am glad I never bothered to read forums and reviews before I bought my Digilux 2, or else I would never have bought it (my first Leica!). Not Leica's finest hour? When it first came out a lot of people heavily panned the Digilux 2, too. Yet it turned out to be the best compact digital I have used (and I have used quite a lot of small sensor cameras, before I could afford a "proper" APS-C and, later, "full frame" cameras). And now it's even widely considered a classic. Rubbish Image Quality on a sensor smaller than a fingernail? I used it as my only camera for 2 years, ISO100 for colour during daytime (smooth like Portra) and ISO400 for B&W at night and indoors (chunky like T-Max, though I frequently tweaked it to become grainy "TriX"). It was more than good enough for the kind of photography I was doing then (events and people) and it produced photos that remain some of my best shots to this day. And then I got competent enough and the GAS attack started. My point here is, if Leica could get great IQ out of that tiny sensor, I doubt they can't at least match it on a comparatively gigantic APS-C sensor. Too slow? The Digilux 2 had top rate optics and second rate sensor technology. The X Vario has top rate sensor tech (well, on paper at least!) and "second-rate" (allegedly) optics. The f2.0 Summicron on the tiny 2/3" sensor would give you equivalent depth of field to probably f5.6-8.0 on APS-C. And look at the size of that Vario Summicron! That was for a 2/3" sensor. Imagine how big it would have to be to fit APS-C! Bad value for money, especially considering you can get cheaper yet better competing products? The Digilux 2 cost me three times more than the LC5, its Panasonic equivalent, and four times more than the LC40, the same camera but with slightly fewer features and a different form factor. I still bought it cos I felt the jpegs looked different straight out of the camera. In strictly dollar terms the Digilux 2 cost as much as the X1, but in today's money it would probably retail for more. In fact, when I think about the Digilux 2, and then I read the comments about the X vario, I don't see much of a difference in terms of issues raised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1867 Posted June 12, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Oh dear, long post. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1868 Posted June 12, 2013 Oh dear, long post. Sorry. Enjoyed looking through your flickr stream, some lovely light captured. Chuckled at "Lei-ka" too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1869 Posted June 12, 2013 Looking forward to seeing/reading the first forum member buyers' opinions ... Has anyone acquired an X Vario today or yesterday? Any sample pics to share? Best wishes dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhayat Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1870 Posted June 12, 2013 Enjoyed looking through your flickr stream, some lovely light captured. Chuckled at "Lei-ka" too! Thank you! Unfortunately, after Flickr changed to the new look, I was unable to log into my account - for some reason it just refuses to recognise my username and password, and the two email accounts I linked to have not been active for a long time and I couldn't get to those either. So it's a dormant gallery now. I can look at it, but I can't make any changes to it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nei1 Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1871 Posted June 12, 2013 It's easy to forget where leica came from and what it's cameras are designed to achieve .A camera for the street could still emerge from this duck if it has a decent high asa performance and quick focus.If you want good bokeh and the ultimate in quality then a leica would be the last on my list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1872 Posted June 12, 2013 It's easy to forget where leica came from and what it's cameras are designed to achieve .A camera for the street could still emerge from this duck if it has a decent high asa performance and quick focus.If you want good bokeh and the ultimate in quality then a leica would be the last on my list. Pardon?? dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1873 Posted June 12, 2013 "There's no getting away from the fact that the Leica X Vario is a very expensive camera. But in the same way the Bugatti doesn't set out to compete with popular cars such as the VW Golf, Leica doesn't make cameras to compete with mainstream models. " I read that review and they questioned the size of the camera, the placement of some controls as well as the slow focusing speed in relation to the Nex 6 and Oympus E-PL5. They couldn't test image quality. So maybe the Sony and Olympus are the Bugattis in this analogy. Besides, they were just trying to be nice. What some are getting at and some are overlooking is there is a serious foundation for the negative reactions and responses to this camera. Despite the fluff of the press release, I can't think of a single new thing this camera brings to the market to help photographers make better pictures. Nor is it a better compromise between portability and performance than what is already on the market. Yet it is very expensive for what it does bring and for what it lacks. There are a lot of cameras that bring much more at a much lower price. the range of focal lengths offered by the Leica X Vario opens up entirely new horizons for creative photography. Not true. There is nothing new about a 28-70mm equiv. range which has been commonly exceeded in zoom lenses for decades. ------------------- image sensor is unusually large for a camera in its class. Not true. ----------- it sets completely new standards Not true -------- a new, 1080p Full HD video recording function that allows photographers to record memories at a frame rate of 30 full frames per second. Not new other than to Leica perhaps. A 2 year old cell phone can do this. Nex 6 can shoot 60fps (I use 60fps for all my aerial work on a lowly GoPro.) ---------- The Leica X Vario is the world’s first compact camera to combine a large, APS-C format, CMOS image sensor with a zoom lens. Not true. Several APS cameras are smaller and have zoom lenses --------- Since many of their talking points to promote this camera are obvious lies to fool the gullible, one can only expect people to get upset and call Leica to the carpet on this. In my opinion, Leica brought on this firestorm by the way they teased people about the camera in the buildup to the release. Among things they don't tout but the critics do list... no IS, no built in EVF, no interchangeable lenses, magnified MF focus is for the center only, outdated and expensive clip on EVF, slow AF, frame rate is lower than much less expensive cameras. But if you just want something different than the cameras made way out there in the "far east," you've got it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1874 Posted June 12, 2013 OK, we have understood, (1600 posts at least) Leica made a dumb product. Moderators, Isn't it the time to close this thread?? No Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1875 Posted June 12, 2013 *I'd rather pay $3500 for an X Vario with an f/2 to f/2.8 lens and EVF than buy the current offering. Other people's mileage and opinions will vary. Unfortunately it would not be the price in money so much as the price in size.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1876 Posted June 12, 2013 "There's no getting away from the fact that the Leica X Vario is a very expensive camera. But in the same way the Bugatti doesn't set out to compete with popular cars such as the VW Golf, Leica doesn't make cameras to compete with mainstream models. Leica is an exclusive brand.It will be interesting to see how the Leica faithful respond to the Leica X Vario, especially given its Mini M billing and 18-46mm f/3.5-6.4 zoom lens. You don't expect lots of mod cons with a Leica camera, you expect a high standard of design and construction and superb image quality. On the face of it the Leica X Vario seems to deliver it, but we need to test it further to be certain." Hands on: Leica X Vario review | Compact cameras Reviews | TechRadar A bit sloppy that review... They are even confused about the focal length of the X2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1877 Posted June 12, 2013 Unfortunately it would not be the price in money so much as the price in size.... Here's a Canon with a 24-70mm f2.8 zoom lens. Would a lens this size really have worked on the new Leica? There's an M9 in the shot for comparison... Leica M9 with Summicron M f2/28 and a Canon 5D MkII with a Canon EF 24 - 70 zoom lens f2.8 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Spohn Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1878 Posted June 12, 2013 Here's a Canon with a 24-70mm f2.8 zoom lens. Would a lens this size really have worked on the new Leica? There's an M9 in the shot for comparison... Leica M9 with Summicron M f2/28 and a Canon 5D MkII with a Canon EF 24 - 70 zoom lens f2.8 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Excellent point there. But f/6.4 simply does not work for my needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1879 Posted June 12, 2013 Here's a Canon with a 24-70mm f2.8 zoom lens. Would a lens this size really have worked on the new Leica? There's an M9 in the shot for comparison... Leica M9 with Summicron M f2/28 and a Canon 5D MkII with a Canon EF 24 - 70 zoom lens f2.8 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! You are referring to a wider full frame lens not an 18-50 or so. You'd need to compare it to Sigma's 18-50 2.8 or Sigma's 17-70 2.8-4. Sony's 16-50 3.5-5.6 covers a wider range than the X Vario and is a bit faster at the long end. It also only weights 4 ounces and is very small. Fuji has its 18-55 2.8-4. But the point is many feel it would be better to have a faster lens than not. It also would have been better to have such a lens removable so that one could choose to use a smaller one if that is one's preference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted June 12, 2013 Share #1880 Posted June 12, 2013 I read that review and they questioned the size of the camera, the placement of some controls as well as the slow focusing speed in relation to the Nex 6 and Oympus E-PL5. They couldn't test image quality. So maybe the Sony and Olympus are the Bugattis in this analogy. Besides, they were just trying to be nice. What some are getting at and some are overlooking is there is a serious foundation for the negative reactions and responses to this camera. Despite the fluff of the press release, I can't think of a single new thing this camera brings to the market to help photographers make better pictures. Nor is it a better compromise between portability and performance than what is already on the market. Yet it is very expensive for what it does bring and for what it lacks. There are a lot of cameras that bring much more at a much lower price. the range of focal lengths offered by the Leica X Vario opens up entirely new horizons for creative photography. Not true. There is nothing new about a 28-70mm equiv. range which has been commonly exceeded in zoom lenses for decades. ------------------- image sensor is unusually large for a camera in its class. Not true. ----------- it sets completely new standards Not true -------- a new, 1080p Full HD video recording function that allows photographers to record memories at a frame rate of 30 full frames per second. Not new other than to Leica perhaps. A 2 year old cell phone can do this. Nex 6 can shoot 60fps (I use 60fps for all my aerial work on a lowly GoPro.) ---------- The Leica X Vario is the world’s first compact camera to combine a large, APS-C format, CMOS image sensor with a zoom lens. Not true. Several APS cameras are smaller and have zoom lenses --------- Since many of their talking points to promote this camera are obvious lies to fool the gullible, one can only expect people to get upset and call Leica to the carpet on this. In my opinion, Leica brought on this firestorm by the way they teased people about the camera in the buildup to the release. Among things they don't tout but the critics do list... no IS, no built in EVF, no interchangeable lenses, magnified MF focus is for the center only, outdated and expensive clip on EVF, slow AF, frame rate is lower than much less expensive cameras. But if you just want something different than the cameras made way out there in the "far east," you've got it. Good points Alan. I also read today from Leica themselves (linked earlier in this thread) that this camera is very much aimed at existing M and S users!!! So much for "it's not aimed at this demographic" comments earlier! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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