Hannes Lummes Posted April 5, 2013 Share #61 Posted April 5, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think there should be a third screw, offset from the line the two current screws form. This way any stress would not bend but only stress the screws directly in the most secure direction. Would make a huge difference in the development of slack and subsequent catastrophe. Shame on Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 Hi Hannes Lummes, Take a look here Leica M strap lugs unscrewing (merged). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
UliWer Posted April 5, 2013 Share #62 Posted April 5, 2013 ...Why do Leica try to deny problems like this? Well, reading the message digilux gave us, it is my understanding they don't deny it, but say that the usual locktite was "forgotten". They say as well that this might happen in other cases advising users to look if the strap lugs are tight - if not they are going to fix it. We can easily agree that this should not happen - and I am rather sure that people who are responsible at Leica will agree as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 5, 2013 Share #63 Posted April 5, 2013 If loctite is normally used the problem should remain limited IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salander Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share #64 Posted April 5, 2013 I hope that Leica doesn't take their time with repair. Does anyone know the normal turn around time with a warranty repair from Solms? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 5, 2013 Share #65 Posted April 5, 2013 Someone at Leica is rather forgetful with the locktite it seems..... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/254089-m9-strap-eyelets.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/196175-lug-strap-eyelet.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-x1-forum/174551-leica-rocks.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdk Posted April 5, 2013 Share #66 Posted April 5, 2013 Someone at Leica is rather forgetful with the locktite it seems..... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/254089-m9-strap-eyelets.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/196175-lug-strap-eyelet.html http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-x1-forum/174551-leica-rocks.html So that’s 3 out of how many total? Of course there are probably some more that were not reported here, but this is not a exactly common problem. Still, you would think in cameras this expensive, the assemblers would have to fill out a checklist to prevent such oversights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 5, 2013 Share #67 Posted April 5, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think there should be a third screw, offset from the line the two current screws form. This way any stress would not bend but only stress the screws directly in the most secure direction. Would make a huge difference in the development of slack and subsequent catastrophe. Shame on Leica. I think it would make no difference except to weaken the middle of the lug. Shame where it belongs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted April 6, 2013 Share #68 Posted April 6, 2013 So that’s 3 out of how many total? Of course there are probably some more that were not reported here, but this is not a exactly common problem. Still, you would think in cameras this expensive, the assemblers would have to fill out a checklist to prevent such oversights. I am inclined to think that it may be more common than it is reported, for one i had loose strap lug on MP, it was mentioned on film camera sub forum. In my whole life i never came across or heard of loose strap eyelet on any other make of camera and those other cameras don't sell with the same quality control spiel and price to match as Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 6, 2013 Share #69 Posted April 6, 2013 The implication being if someone can forget to put Loctite on some screws and nobody else checks this, and this could lead to serious damage and inconvenience... what else might be forgotten or not checked properly? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 6, 2013 Share #70 Posted April 6, 2013 It is one of the implications of hand-built gear. Even the Space-Shuttle Challenger disaster comes down to failure of CQ... And nobody expects Leica to outperform NASA in that respect, I should think. The simple fact of life is that robots cannot forget to perform an action, but humans can, and there is no way to prevent it 100%. Having said that, I would be royally pissed off if it happened to one of my cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 6, 2013 Share #71 Posted April 6, 2013 It is one of the implications of hand-built gear. Even the Space-Shuttle Challenger disaster comes down to failure of CQ...( And the failure in QC was in not recording data on successes, but only failures. Its a complicated statistical process. A friend of mine who worked for NASA won a huge NASA award for finding the working error. A shame that the tragedy happened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
krooj Posted April 6, 2013 Share #72 Posted April 6, 2013 Seems like a really flimsy way to attach such an important anchor. If they were going to use little screws like this, it might have made more sense to have the head of the lug fit through an opening in the die-cast housing. That leaves the remainder of any part of the lug free to have an arbitrary number of anchor points to the inside of the cast body. Like another poster said, nobody else has this problem, so there's a clear engineering flaw here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 6, 2013 Share #73 Posted April 6, 2013 It sure was a tragedy - as I understand it the main cause was operating the Shuttle at a temperature that was below the operating range that it had been tested for. And the failure in QC was in not recording data on successes, but only failures. Its a complicated statistical process. A friend of mine who worked for NASA won a huge NASA award for finding the working error. A shame that the tragedy happened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 6, 2013 Share #74 Posted April 6, 2013 Aren't we lucky to have so many expert mechanical engineers .... in the back seat. Everybody has an opinion on how to make it better, but it is unlikely they could, really. So Leica had a rare gap in the process! For all you know the fasteners were too short. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 6, 2013 Share #75 Posted April 6, 2013 Most of us are blessed by 20-20 hindsight, Pico. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 6, 2013 Share #76 Posted April 6, 2013 Aren't we lucky to have so many expert mechanical engineers .... in the back seat. Everybody has an opinion on how to make it better, but it is unlikely they could, really. So Leica had a rare gap in the process! For all you know the fasteners were too short.. Other lugs I have seen were designed with one screw acting as a pin inserted through a housing at a 90 degree angle to the lug. This design is not dependent on the screw securing the lug via torque. It only prevents the lug from sliding out of its housing and thus the threading is not as stressed. This is how it is on a Nikon F and it is fairly accessible. (Nikon Fs had brass lugs that would wear and later models had stainless steel inserts.) http://www.nicovandijk.net/DSCN0564.JPG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted April 6, 2013 Share #77 Posted April 6, 2013 It sure was a tragedy - as I understand it the main cause was operating the Shuttle at a temperature that was below the operating range that it had been tested for. Not only not tested, the decision makers were told exactly what would happen and it did. Reminds me of the M8 where they thought people would not notice blacks that went magenta and all the other colors that were "off" and they sold it anyway. At least there was a fix. There was no fix for the shuttle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 6, 2013 Share #78 Posted April 6, 2013 ...there's a clear engineering flaw here. If so, Leica engineers stopped working 30 years ago at least as the lugs of my M6J and M4-2 look exactly the same as those of my M8.2. I would not bet that those of my first M4 were the same in 1971 but i'm nearly sure of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted April 6, 2013 Share #79 Posted April 6, 2013 From the outside the lugs (up to the M9) look almost exactly the same like for a Leica III from 1933, the execption was the early M3 where the lugs looked like "hanging ears". From the inside it seems there have been different ways of fixing them. In the LTM-bodies you see the same ring which is still there for the fixing knob of the bottom plate of the M2. In the M2 it looks like rivetting, but I am not sure. The M6 clearly has two screws, which seems to be the same system we have seen on the "damage photo". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted April 6, 2013 Share #80 Posted April 6, 2013 Other lugs I have seen were designed with one screw acting as a pin inserted through a housing at a 90 degree angle to the lug. This design is not dependent on the screw securing the lug via torque. It only prevents the lug from sliding out of its housing and thus the threading is not as stressed. This is how it is on a Nikon F and it is fairly accessible. (Nikon Fs had brass lugs that would wear and later models had stainless steel inserts.) http://www.nicovandijk.net/DSCN0564.JPG Alan, Is this URL a link to a Nikon lug image? I get a dead link message. I have a few Fs with worn all-brass lugs and would like to slowly replace them with the newer lugs that have the insert. If this is something I could do myself I'd like that. thanks, s-a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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