Strange Brew and firmware version 1.10

[michael_b_elmer]

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I haven't takten an anlogue picture for years. Still, if I want to take a digital picture with my M8, Leica tells me to use a 6-bit coded lens, to put an IR/UV filter in the front of my lens where it creates a great risk of reducing picture quality, since it protrudes more than foreseen by the designer of the sun shade, and to use firmware 1.10 when that version is released.

 

This seems to me to be a strange brew!

 

Buying a Leica M-lens means spending a whole lot of money - 2.500-3.500 € or more - and to invest in the state of the art design. It is completely illogical that I have to use a IR/UV filter before this well designed and calculated lens with the risk of reducing the optical performance for which I paid so deerly.

 

To me, it would seem more logical if we who buy modern lenses for taking digital pictures would not need to buy strange extras filters, so that those who buy modern lenses with a view to using them for analogue pictures, had to buy "anti-IR/UV filters" in order to get rid of the filter effect that ought to be built in into the worlds most modern and best designed lenses.

 

Another problem with the M8 and Firmware version 1.10 seems to be that a number of fine lenses cannot be equipped with 6-bit coding, including the 35/1.4 non-asph and the 35/1.4 aspherical, and that these lenses can in reality not be used with the M8 when firmware 1.10 is released and installed, since the camera cannot get information that these lenses and their IR/UV filters are used.

 

I would love to be convinced that I am wrong , and that the M8 will continue to work fine without IR/UV filters and without 6-bit coding. But I am beginning to lose hope.

[robsteve]

 

I would love to be convinced that I am wrong , and that the M8 will continue to work fine without IR/UV filters and without 6-bit coding. But I am beginning to lose hope.

 

You are not wrong and since you know of the problems, you do not have to buy a M8 if you don't like the system.

[carstenw]

With current technology, the Leica chose this design as the best compromise. Using a stronger IR filter in the camera would have lowered the quality of the image as a whole. R-D1 users should be familiar with poor(er) corner performance, as an example. The M lenses are very close to the sensor. I also don't like filters, but I accept them because the camera in general performs so well. Self-coding is an option for certain lenses.

 

Anyway, this discussion is old, and you can search the old threads if you would like to read how they ended.

[John in Japan]

I'm no expert but I'm going to put some kind of filter over a $1500 (or more) lens. I shoot with a UV filter always on my Nikon D200, if for no other reason than protection.

 

So far the counter on my M8 only says about 200 photos so take this with a grain of salt. I have not taken a picture yet and seen any color shifts of any kind. If I did I could pop a UV filter on it and correct. I know the problem and I know the corrective measure.

 

I love my M8, and it's just a machine. I already see with it that I'm not throwing my Nikon D200 away as it has a place as well.

 

John

[lct]

You are not wrong and since you know of the problems, you do not have to buy a M8 if you don't like the system.

Sure we do not have to buy and we do not have to complain either after we've spent so much money for Leica.

We just have to keep quiet or to say hurray so everybody's happy!

[Eoin]

Perhaps you need to view this differently. Rather than having issues with what Leica say, examine the many fine images within this forum taken with M8's, filters, coded and non coded lenses and ask yourself how much that image has be degraded by the use of a filter.

 

I remember way back using filters with black and white to enhance blues, reds, greens and so on. Image degradation was not the issue, moreover the effect was the desired result.

 

It's easy to bemoan the use of IR/Cuts and coded lenses from 35mm and below, but it's part and parcel of the digital M. I for one was furious when I heard the statement after the launch of the M8, but having used the camera and many fine leica lenses and having viewed the results first hand I'm more than satisfied with my purchase.

 

You have the all the information at your fingertips to make a balanced judgment, it's not a case where you have to use all coded lenses for every focal length and you can shoot without filters and correct magenta issues should they arise in post processing.

 

Leica recommend the filters and coding to achieve the best results, but choosing not to implement the recommendation will still yield such superb quality that even you would be hard pressed to know the difference.

 

Oh! by the way, this really only applies to colour images, if your shooting for B&W you may prefer the extra IR ability It's kind of like "is the glass half empty or half full" way of looking at things. And I don't mean to imply the M8 is a half anything, it's very capable .

[Guest stnami]

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You are not wrong and since you know of the problems, you do not have to buy a M8 if you don't like the system.

... bit of a non reply............... filters are like wearing a condom, the ride is still there but not the same........

[lct]

...the ride is still there but not the same...

... and the shutter noise is still there but not the same.

... and the open system is gone away for how long?

Well forget it folks, don't want to rain on this parade.

[tashley]

... bit of a non reply............... filters are like wearing a condom, the ride is still there but not the same........

 

 

How bloody irritating to see someome posting what I would have posted had my brain worked faster.

 

T

[msr]

Good one Tim!

 

Malcolm

[rosuna]

Buying a Leica M-lens means spending a whole lot of money - 2.500-3.500 € or more - and to invest in the state of the art design. It is completely illogical that I have to use a IR/UV filter before this well designed and calculated lens with the risk of reducing the optical performance for which I paid so deerly.

 

Michael, consider this: you must to use a IR filter, on the lens or on the sensor. The IR filter on the lens doesn't affect its performance more than the filter on the sensor!

 

Even more, I think the IR filter on the lens is a (theoretically) better solution because it stops the UV and IR light before it enters in the lens/camera system, whereas the IR filter on the sensor stops it after it passed through the lens. On the lens you can use a difractive filter, but on the sensor you must employ an absorbent one (and this implies a thick filter). I think the IR filter on the lens isn't a worse solution, from a technical point of view. IR filters on sensor are the usual solution just because it is cheaper and more convenient.

[wilfredo]

I haven't coded any of my lenses and since I mostly shoot RAW it hasn't been an issue. Image quality has not been affected by use of filters, in fact I've always used them so I decided to stop making an issue about having to use the UVIR 486 Cut Filters.

 

Leica might have been a state of the art camera at one time (Back in the 50's and before) but now it isn't, not like Canon. In the end, with Leica it is all about image, that is the bottom line, and you can't beat it! But for this you have to be willing to accept some aspects of the M8 that are still in the 50's. The choice is yours. Complaining about the M8's limitations won't change things. I learned that lesson the hard way, and acceptance has been a great healer. I couldn't be more pleased with the results I get from my Leica M8. Yes, it may seem crazy to make an investment on a tool that does not incorporate all the latest technology, but for me in the end, it is also about the image. We live in a world where we demand the latest technology from everything, and frankly, that doesn't always mean you will get the best results.

 

Here's some recent stuff. The prints are simply beyond what I had hoped for. By the way, it was the photography posted on this forum (especially B&W shots) that convinced me to go with the M8, and I love it, limitations and all. I've never been happier with the results I've gotten from a camera over the last three months.

 

Cheers,

Wilfredo

Benitez-Rivera Photography

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[guywalder]

 

This seems to me to be a strange brew!

 

QUOTE]

 

Michael,

I'm not really sure what point you are making, other than being unhappy about the filters.

 

Any comments about V1.10 are really just speculation until it arrives and we see exactly what it contains and how it works. Meantime you can put the filters on your old 35mm lenses and continue to use them on the M8. You may find some marginal colour shift in the corners, but some people dont find it a problem at that focal length. Why not try it and decide for yourself?

 

Leica havnt designed the perfect camera, but then no one else has either.

Guy

[californiajay]

Someone said it very well. Would you rather have the filter in front of the lens or the sensor. In my position I have heard countless people complain that DSLR images are not as sharp as they had thought they would be. This due to the IR filter in front of the sensors, so they too are degrading the image quality.

 

Frankly, I think that the M lenses with filters produce images that look better than most any other lenses without them!

 

Having to upgrade to 1.10? Well I also own a Canon 1DS MKII and a 5D. Both those have received firmware updates as well. Welcome to the land of digital. In the old analog days, if something was wrong with the camera's design, you basically had to wait for the camera's successor to fix this. Now it's a 5 minute firmware update! This is a BAD thing??

[Riley]

I haven't takten an anlogue picture for years. Still, if I want to take a digital picture with my M8, Leica tells me to use a 6-bit coded lens, to put an IR/UV filter in the front of my lens where it creates a great risk of reducing picture quality, since it protrudes more than foreseen by the designer of the sun shade, and to use firmware 1.10 when that version is released.

 

that's not new to anyone here, other than occasional flare, there seems to be no reduction in picture quality

 

This seems to me to be a strange brew!

 

Buying a Leica M-lens means spending a whole lot of money - 2.500-3.500 € or more - and to invest in the state of the art design. It is completely illogical that I have to use a IR/UV filter before this well designed and calculated lens with the risk of reducing the optical performance for which I paid so deerly.

 

To me, it would seem more logical if we who buy modern lenses for taking digital pictures would not need to buy strange extras filters, so that those who buy modern lenses with a view to using them for analogue pictures, had to buy "anti-IR/UV filters" in order to get rid of the filter effect that ought to be built in into the worlds most modern and best designed lenses.

 

not only the most modern, but also some of the oldest. M8 can use most M lenses that date back considerably. Other manufacturers havnt had to consider the special qualities of M glass, or the very short register of the lenses, hence they can not use M lenses. If you avail yourself of some M8 images, you should see that they are indeed very sharp, do other manufacturers do that as well as use M glass?

 

Another problem with the M8 and Firmware version 1.10 seems to be that a number of fine lenses cannot be equipped with 6-bit coding, including the 35/1.4 non-asph and the 35/1.4 aspherical, and that these lenses can in reality not be used with the M8 when firmware 1.10 is released and installed, since the camera cannot get information that these lenses and their IR/UV filters are used.

 

I would love to be convinced that I am wrong , and that the M8 will continue to work fine without IR/UV filters and without 6-bit coding. But I am beginning to lose hope.

 

they are discussing a firmware fix for this issue now. As an alternate strategy you might consider lenses that can be coded instead.

[tom0511]

Sure we do not have to buy and we do not have to complain either after we've spent so much money for Leica.

We just have to keep quiet or to say hurray so everybody's happy!

 

We could discuss it 500more times but I would assume that it wont help much.

Its a know compromise to use the IR-Cut as a filter instead in front of the sensor because it seems this way Image quality is better.

The main thing bugging me right now is that they have not yet delievered 1.10 firmware.

[j. borger]

I agree with everybody ... but consider it a waste of time and bandwith to do this discussion all over again! In the mean time i work happily with or without the filters ......

Image degradation is academic ..... if there is anything wrong with the M8 files ... it is most likely that they are TOO sharp ...

[andit]

The problem with IR is not limited to the Leica M8. Phillip Otto kindly posted a thread http://www.leica-camera-user.com/barnacks-bar/18671-engadget-reporter-waiting-recieve-ir-cut.html where he shared photo's taken with a Nikon D200. In these images Steve Jobs is supposed to be wearing a BLACK shirt. Does not look like black to me on these images. So, I would not hammer the M8 for this reason.

 

As for using filters, Leica could very well come up with a whole new digital line of lenses (just like Canon and all the other manufacturers have), that incorporate a coating to include the 486 IR/Cut filter - then we would all be moaning about having to buy new lenses again. In general, I think they came up with a good compromise.

 

Looking at the images that have been posted above by Wilfredo (who I think is a brilliant photographer - Wilfredo, your images are stunning and inspiring, thank you so much for sharing them, you certainly give me a level to aim for), without the use of the IR/Cut filter, speak for themselves.

 

Andreas

[chuckpjones]

Guys, stop thinking for just a second. One small moment in time. Good. Now, go back just a few posts back, and LOOK at the images posted by Wilfredo. Wait, just LOOK at them. Don't think about them, FEEL them. He is absolutely correct, it is all about the image, those beautiful images my friends, the M8 is certainly not about technological advancement. It is all about making beautiful images, in the hand of he who is able to master the best. He who understands that great images come from the chaos, not from the best planning or the best technology in the world.

 

Entertainers reflect back to the audience what their audience wants to see. Artists reflect back to the world their own vision of it. Take it, or leave it. The M8 is an Artists tool. Just as it is. It needs no defense, as a tool it is perfect as it is, warts and all. Nothing is perfect. Aproach the M8 as the glass half empty, and yes, you will find every flaw you can imagine. Every limitation. It is a 1930's design, remember? But use this tool as the Artist's paintbrush, and magic happens. See it as the glass half full, work around it's small limitations, forget all about filters, autofocus, etc, etc, etd, and what you are left with is nothing short of pure magic. The glass half full. The only camera in the world that will do what this one does. Nothing else matters save for the final image. It either works, or it doesn't work. The images speak for themselves. It is either your tool, or buy a Nikon. Or a Canon 5D. Or whatever turns your crank. But move on and make beautiful images guys, for life it is very short indeed. Far too short to get stuck trying to decide if your tool is up to the task, when the real question is are you up to the task of expressing your own unique vision of the world whatever tool happens to land in your hands?

 

I am using the M8 with my favorite Leica M lens, a 47 year old 21mm f3.5. I have many other options, but find that this old standard still gives me more than all of it's high tech newer counterparts do. Oh, and it doesn't even work in Aperture Priority mode. Only manual. The metering doesn't work correctly as the rear lens element sticks in way too far for the meter to read accurately. Heaven, pure heaven. Put the puppy on full manual, whatever your other choices, and just go out and shoot. Your own images will tell you the whole Leica M story.

 

Warmest Regards,

Chuck Jones

Chuck Jones Photography

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[carstenw]

Hello Chuck,

 

so you decided to join the Leica forum. How do you find the M8 to work with? I see that you enjoy the simplicity of it as much as I do. The 5D just had too many buttons and settings for my taste, plus it was too large for me. I presume you use the M8 for street photography in Mexico, for the most part?