Leica M6 Posted February 9, 2013 Share #1 Posted February 9, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello, I am reading this forum for quite a while now and finally got my own Leica M6 about two weeks ago. I bought the camera from a German dealer on Ebay, optically it's in perfect condition and I was very happy... until I got my first scans back. I am experiencing the worst front focus issues I've ever had with any camera. After the first roll I thought it's me, after the second roll I was suspicious and then shot the third roll testing the focus. Except for the minimal focusing distance, every single image is off. And not only slightly. Now my question to the Leica pro's here in the forum: How do I know the camera is the problem and not the lens? The rangefinder alignment "seems" fine - It's ok on infinity and the vertical alignment looks great. I did the mirror test (sticking tape on a mirror, focusing the lens on 1m, then bringing the tape in focus and focusing on the lens - and it does show 2m). If I focus on the moon (infinity), it's perfectly in focus. I only have a Nokton 35mm 1.4 which I bought new from a dealer. Is it possible that the rangefinder is totally off even though it "looks" ok? I am very reluctant to return the M6 because it's in such great condition optically. The only issues I could find is the long times are a little too long and dust specs in the finder. Everything else seems to be ok. Any ideas are really appreciated. Thank you guys! Johnny Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Hi Leica M6, Take a look here Leica M6 focussing problems - rangefinder or lens?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
xalo Posted February 9, 2013 Share #2 Posted February 9, 2013 Hi Johnny and welcome to the forum, others will be knowing more about the M6's RF alignment, but if I remember well, the lens you mention is known for focus shift (expressed especially at close distance) and strong field curvature. At least this is what I recall reading on Sean Reid pages before deciding not to buy it, despite it's otherwise interesting characteristics. Perhaps you can check again at smaller aperture settings and greater distance? Best, Alexander Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted February 9, 2013 Share #3 Posted February 9, 2013 Sorry to hear of your issues. The M6 and that lens should be a nice combination, and is worth sorting it out. Camera rangefinders are more delicate and complex, and can get knocked out of adjustment, while lenses tend to be more rugged. However, I've never had a rangefinder go out, and have had one Zeiss lens that would front focus when new. With only one lens and body its difficult to find the problem, and with a film body you always have the waiting time to see results of tests. If you have a dealer nearby who has Leica M9s, I'd take the lens in and try it on the digital so you can get instant feedback as to the lens. On the other hand, rangefinder adjustment by a camera tech is usually a fast and inexpensive process. All of my Voigtlander lenses, including the 35 1.4, were perfectly adjusted for focus when new, but the Zeiss lens that had FF problems is made at the same factory, so I can't rule out the lens. The 35 1.4 Nokton does have significant focus-shift to the rear as you stop it down, but that doesn't sound like your issue. It sounds like your checks on the rangefinder are reasonable, and it could be a shift in the optics of the lens that didn't affect the rangefinder cam; so the rangefinder and lens scales would agree, but the optical focus could be off. Any way to borrow another lens or body to try different combinations? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica M6 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share #4 Posted February 9, 2013 Thanks to both of you for your reply. @Alexander What I was describing is not focus shift, but a consistent front focus all over the range. Focus shift should normally only occur if you stop down, which I am not planning on. I shoot wide open all the time so that problem didn't hold me back from getting the Nokton as I love all it's other characteristics. @Tom Thanks for your opinion and the encouragement about the camera/lens combination. Normally I would just send the M6 back to the dealer but I have to say that I attached to it quite quickly. It's my first Leica and it quickly caught up with my 503CW because it handles so well. What you suggested makes sense, the problem is that I won't easily find anyone with an M8 or M9 around. I will talk to the dealer that sold me the Nokton if I can rent one as I have no other lens for the M6. I have very little knowledge about the rangefinder mechanism and wanted to double check if it could be that off even though everything appears as if it's the lens, not the body. Testing something like this with film is really a pain in the behind. But I am very thrilled about the M6 and the Nokton 1.4 SC and cannot wait to get that combo right. So thank you very much for the warm welcome and your feedback! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xalo Posted February 9, 2013 Share #5 Posted February 9, 2013 Johnny, Tom, I stand corrected then re/Nokton. Bon courage in sorting out the issue. I always feel it's a hassle to let go of a camera for adjustment/repair. In good shops, you can sometimes wait beside the counter... Best, Alexander Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted February 10, 2013 Share #6 Posted February 10, 2013 Checking infinity focus is the first step because it's independent of the rangefinder. With the focusing ring on the lens set to infinity and the aperture to f/1.4, objects in the distance (more than 100 metres) should be very sharp and nearer objects (say 30 metres) slightly less sharp. Let's call this condition A. ( If nearer objects are sharper than distant ones, or they are equally sharp, it means either that the lens is out of whack or that the distance between the lens flange and the film is too great. The former is much more likely. © If both are unsharp, it means either that the lens is out of whack or that the distance between the lens flange and the film is too small. Again, the former is much more likely. If you have condition A, set the lens to infinity and look at a really distant object (say 500 metres). The images of it in the rangefinder should coincide. If not, the rangefinder needs adjusting. If you have conditions B or C, the lens needs fixing (or you need to get hold of a lens that is known to be correctly adjusted) before you can tell whether there's a problem with the rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica M6 Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share #7 Posted February 10, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thank you very much for your feedback, John. That's a great starting point. I need to take a picture to proof condition "A" - as it makes no difference in the viewfinder obviously. The rangefinder overlaps perfectly at infinity and gets more off towards minimal focus, which is how it should behave. Have a look at the two attached images. In picture one I focused on the boathouse and the very front is halfway in focus (yeah, it's THAT off) and in the second picture I focused on the hill and the boat house is halfway in focus. As this should be infinity, it might be the lens... Excuse the bad images, local drugstore and home scan just for a demo. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/197893-leica-m6-focussing-problems-rangefinder-or-lens/?do=findComment&comment=2238951'>More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted February 10, 2013 Share #8 Posted February 10, 2013 Substitute a bit of matt accetate for film. Take the back off the camera, replace the bottom and attach to a tripod. Now focus with a hood over the camera like a view camera with the shutter locked open. Focus with the scale on the lens, and then with the RF to determine which is incorrect. There are two adjustment points for the RF, infinity and 1 meter from the film plane.. If these are correct, then the RF is working properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica M6 Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share #9 Posted February 10, 2013 Wow, that's brilliant- thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica M6 Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share #10 Posted February 10, 2013 I just checked with this method and 1m and 1.5m seem to be ok. Through the viewfinder and on the improvised matte screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted February 11, 2013 Share #11 Posted February 11, 2013 ... until I got my first scans back. I think a simple test, and another roll of film would be a good idea. Set the camera on a tripod point it down a line of trees or a fence, and just shoot a few pictures off only using the lens markings, so three feet, ten feet, thirty feet, infinity for instance. Now focus on the same points (you will need to roughly measure where the closer points are) and when processed see if any of the focused pictures agree with the lens markings. And take the film to another lab. The pictures you show are so universally out of focus, with nothing even gradually getting better or worse from foreground to background that I think they may simply have been printed or scanned badly. The fact that you find closer focused images sharper is understandable because the subject matter is bigger, with fewer small details. So tree's and grass are less tolerant than strong shapes to focus problems. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica M6 Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share #12 Posted February 12, 2013 Thank you for your feedback. I doubt it's a Lab/Scanning problem, you can clearly see that the camera doesn't focus right - even with these bad scans (me) from a local drugstore dev. I will try my Nokton on a M9 on tomorrow and either return the lens or the camera. I couldn't figure out what's wrong in the end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted February 12, 2013 Share #13 Posted February 12, 2013 If you did my test, then everything is working properly. If you were to send the camera for repair, they would adjust the rf to infinity and one meter from the film plane. Those are the only two adjustment points. Leica 50 mm lenses are marked at 1 meter and the film plane is marked on the camera. Infinity is 500 meters away or better. I use a star at night. Use tape to hold the acetate in place, matt side in. Use a reversed 50 mm lens from any camera as a loupe to inspect the image. The acetate needs to sit flat in the inner rails. Use the lens at F 1.8 or wide open. Congratulation on figuring how to remove the back with the slide lock. This is really hard to have to diagnose without having the camera in hand and one extra known to be good lens. I do remember one time I mounted a lens on my M6 and tried to focus on a distant scene and the previously ok lens was not focusing properly. Infinity was coming up at 3 meters. I took the lens off and remounted it and all was well. I do not know what happened to this day. I might suggest this happened to you. Or possibly a spec of something was caught on the RF cam wheel or the cam on the lens that pushes the RF cam. I always turn the lens to closest focus distance before mounting or dismounting so as to put the least abuse on the RF which can get out of adjustment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted February 12, 2013 Share #14 Posted February 12, 2013 If you did my test, then everything is working properly. If you were to send the camera for repair, they would adjust the rf to infinity and one meter from the film plane. Those are the only two adjustment points. Every Leica service manual I have seen refers to adjusting for 1m, 10m and infinity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 12, 2013 Share #15 Posted February 12, 2013 Thank you for your feedback. I doubt it's a Lab/Scanning problem, you can clearly see that the camera doesn't focus right - even with these bad scans (me) from a local drugstore dev. I will try my Nokton on a M9 on tomorrow and either return the lens or the camera. I couldn't figure out what's wrong in the end. Sorry but those scans are terrible and I would definitely suspect them as well as the other links in the chain. Process of elimination. Try your lens on the M9, try another lens on your M6, and try another lab (or judge the negatives not potentially erroneous scans). Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted February 12, 2013 Share #16 Posted February 12, 2013 I doubt it's a Lab/Scanning problem, you can clearly see that the camera doesn't focus right - even with these bad scans (me) from a local drugstore dev. I don't know what you are looking at, but there is no hint of anything being in focus or sharp. If your image is simply out of focus, so the lens or rangefinder is bad, or both, there would still be some gradation in the focus, something, somewhere, would be even slightly more in focus than the rest. The only way you could get something so poor is not to be focusing the camera at all, so it is set on the minimum distance for example when you are photographing a landscape. So, if a picture looks universally out of focus or unsharp the culprit is more likely to be in the scanning or printing. Remember after you took the picture the camera lens has dealt with the focus and depth of focus issues, the negative is a single plain one dimensional thing. It can be in focus or out of focus with no depth of field to speak of when scanning or printing, which means any focus problems with the scanner will render an otherwise sharp negative as being soft, just like your images to all appearances. If you did my test you would see for sure because if the rangefinder is lying, or the lens, you will get something, somewhere, in focus and sharp, it cannot fail, except if the scanning or printing is letting you down. And once you get something in focus you can start to discover where the fault is. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted February 12, 2013 Share #17 Posted February 12, 2013 It is also possible to have a lens group out of position so everything is fuzzy and there is no sharp focus. I once picked up a 90 TE like that - everything muddy and low contrast, no defined sharp area. Repair tech said the rear group was out of alignment, and since repair has been completely different. There is a lot of variation reported in the CV 35 1.4 (like the OP is trying) - so it could be a simply defective lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted February 13, 2013 Share #18 Posted February 13, 2013 I would hope that printing/scanning problems have been ruled out by inspecting the actual negs with a magnifier, that's surely always the first step, they are what the camera actually produces Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeswe Posted February 13, 2013 Share #19 Posted February 13, 2013 As Gyoung has suggested, rule out scanning problems by inspecting your negatives with a magnifier. If the negatives appear to be soft, check your lens and the best way is with the view camera approach that was suggested above. However, when you do that I recommend against using any kind of flexible material like film that will bulge as a screen and introduce unwanted variables into the equation. Instead, with a cutter, cut an appropriately sized piece of clear plastic out of a CD box lid. Deburr along the edges and completely cover with Scotch matte tape on one side. This makes for a perfectly flat and bright viewing screen. Stick it to the film gate and check if you get a sharp picture from a distant object when the lens is set to infinity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leica M6 Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share #20 Posted February 15, 2013 Thank everyone for your feedback and your suggestions. I tested the 35mm on the M9 and the lens was completely out of alignment. I returned it and purchased a Carl Zeiss C Sonnar T* 1.5/50 ZM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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