Very old Leitz Elmar 50mm

[AdrianW2]

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I recently acquired a Leica II screw mount camera with a collapsible Leitz Elmar 50mm f/3,5 lens. The 81587 serial number on the camera body seems to date it to 1932. But I am really curious about the lens.

The rotating barrel with the depth of field markings has a three digit serial number… “420” – not the six-digit number that seems to have started around 1933. There is no “o” engraved near the lens focus lever although there is an “o” engraved in the 12 o’clock position of the lens mount on the camera.

I assume that this is the original lens that came with the camera. My questions are:

1) When was this Elmar lens made?

2) Was it designed to specifically match my Leica II camera body?

3) Will it work correctly on other Leica screw mount cameras?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

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[earleygallery]

Welcome,

 

The serial number should be engraved on the face of the narrow ring where the aperture adjustment knob is. It's a tiny engraving so look very carefully or use a magnifying glass.

 

To answer your Q's;

 

1. Once you locate the serial number you can look this up

2. No

3. Yes

[jerzy]

non-standard lens, rather 1930 than 1931. Originally not matching your body (SN should be xx420). Body has "0" as it was produced as standartized, missing "0" on flange of lens would indicate that it was not standartized by Leitz, might not work quite correct with your body

jerzy

[jerzy]

not the six-digit number that seems to have started around 1933. .

There are as well 5 digits Elmars, we had once discussion upon this on this forum. I have one with SN 73xxx

[jerzy]

3. Yes

JC, you are right, I belive and I was wrong. It was body what was collimated to te lens and not opposite. This confirms your statement

[AdrianW2]

James, there doesn’t appear to be any serial numbers on the aperture adjustment ring (see photo). The only possible serial number I can find is the “420” number as mentioned before (see other photo).

Jerzy, if I understand correctly, this early Elmar was made without its own serial number, but rather a number that reflected the serial number on the Leica camera body that it originally came with. So the original camera would have had a serial number of “xx420”. Am I correct?

If the old bodies were collimated to match the lens, wouldn’t that mean that my #420 lens will only specifically match the #xx420 body? Since my body is “standardized” (as indicated by the “O”) it will only be guaranteed to focus perfectly with a standardized lens… but not with a lens that was made before the standardization process. Am I right? Thanks for your responses.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello AdrianW2,

 

Welcome to the Forum,

 

The standardized "Leica II", which was called the "Leica D" or "Model D" in some markets, was introduced in February 1932 beginning w/ camera 71200.

 

It had an "o" @ the top of the lens mount indicating that the distance from the flange front to the film plane was a standardized 28.8mm. Standardized lenses also caried the "o". Generally @ the focussing lever. Any standardized lens can be used on any standardized camera & any standardized camera can be used w/ any standardized lens.

 

Previous to this standardization of camera body flange to film distance, lens mounts were not always 28.8mm from the film plane. Lens mount to film plane distance varied camera to camera.

 

Lenses for these cameras had their focussing mounts individually adjusted to function properly w/ a specific camera. An individually adjusted lens had the last 3 digits of the serial # of the camera they were adjusted to work with engraved on their lens mount.

 

There are a number of reasons you may have the lens you have w/ the camera you have:

 

1. Roll of the Cosmic Dice.

 

2. This lens might have been standardized to a body # ending in 420 which happened to have a flange to film distance which measured 28.8mm.

 

3. The lens might fit the standard 39mm X 1mm "Leica Thread" but it might also be an IMPROPER distance from the film plane.

 

4. Other.

 

You can test to see if it is correctly adjusted for a standardized body by:

 

Putting the camera on a tripod or other solid base.

 

Focus on the Moon on a clear nite. See if the distance scale reads "infinity". Take 5 photos (preferrably slides) @ full aperture refocussing each time. Do this both @ the point where the Moon is in focus in the rangefinder & (if different) again when the lens is set @ infinity. Develop photos. Look with a magnifying glass to see if all of the photos are in focus when the scale reads infinity & when the Moon is in focus in the rangefinder window.

 

Do the same thing (focus by rangefinder & focus by scale) @ a measured 3 meters or 10 feet. Make your focal point the middle distance of a ruler lying on the floor pointing away from you.

 

Do the same thing again @ a measured 1 meter or 3 feet focussing on the same ruler pointed the same way.

 

If everything is sharp @ all distances both by scale & by rangefinder then your lens 420 is adjusted to work on a standardized body.

 

If the photos are not in focus both when the rangefinder says they are & when the scale says they are then the lenses (not the body) need to be standardized by a competent repair person or Leica.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[iphoenix]

Totally agree with Michael's test information advice above. That will give you precise information on your lens/camera's focus. I'd be inclined though, to simply put a film through the camera and see what you get. You will then have more info. to go on (or to ask our members). Like you, I found an early camera/lens combination. My standardised but "no serial no. Elmar" (possibly slightly earlier than yours), gives beautiful images and is surprisingly contrasty (for an uncoated lens) and sharp.

[wlaidlaw]

There are quicker and more accurate ways to check the focus of this lens. The first and most accurate is to take the lens to a good camera technician who has an optical bench and get him to check the flange focal distance with a collimator. These instruments are extremely accurate.

 

The easy way is to find a forum member who lives near you and has an M8 or M9 and is willing to help (most of us would be delighted to do so). Then with a Leica or Novoflex (not a back street/eBay) LTM to LM ring mounted on the lens and using one of the downloadable focus charts from the internet (I have attached one for your use), take photographs at 1 metre and 2 metres and then either the moon or an object at least a kilometre away. You can then get an instant read of lens focus accuracy without other factors (accuracy of printing from negative) coming into the equation.

 

Wilson

Focus Test Chart #2.pdf

[wlaidlaw]

I should have explained I am very against matching a lens to a specific camera body. Both should be adjusted to a standard, then the lens will work on any other correctly standardised body and vice versa. I have always declined Leica's offer to match any of my lenses to a body, saying if anything needs adjusting, I want it adjusted to the standard not to each other. I have three M bodies (4, 8 and 9) soon to be four with the addition of an M-240. I want to be able to use any of my lenses freely on any of my bodies, in the certainty that any mis-focus will be down to me not to the equipment.

 

Wilson

[luigi bertolotti]

Hi Adrian,

seems to me that a basic question about your Elmar hasn't yet been posed : is it COUPLED to the rangefinder ? Originally such a lens ought, of course, NOT to be coupled to RF (as explained in the above posts, is the breed of "unstandardized-uncoupled", then entered the "standardized-uncoupled", then the "standardized coupled") but clearly it had a rather complex history... maybe it had been modified when "arrived" on your Leica II body, adding the RF coupling ... without erasing the original engraving which characterizes it as a "non standard" : such modifications were not uncommon at Leitz factory in the '30s : there are known items of Leitz ANASTIGMAT 50 3,5 (the very first lens of the very first Leica sold to the public - fixed on the body) which were modified to standardized screw mount + RF coupling.

[AdrianW2]

Thanks for such great responses!

Michael, I very much appreciate both the information you provided and your thorough suggestions for testing the focusing accuracy of my lens/camera combination.

Wilson and iphoenix, my first test will be a simple one… just loading film and shooting a variety of shots some of which will be with the lens at f/3.5. I don’t want to immediately go into extensive testing of the lens since I’m not even sure that the camera is working correctly. It’s been decades since the last roll went through this body and there now appears to be some blobs of corrosion or possibly organic growth on the shutter. I’m hoping this has not resulted in pinholes… a test roll should answer that question.

Luigi, this lens is coupled… as I focus the lens the image in the rangefinder moves. I haven’t pulled out a ruler to test the accuracy, but after I focused with the rangefinder on something that looked to be four feet away I looked at the focus point on the lens and sure enough it lined up with the 4-foot mark. I have hope!

[thomas_schertel]

i think that the lens is standarized, because it is rangefinder-coupled.

yours sincerely

Thomas

[luigi bertolotti]

i think that the lens is standarized, because it is rangefinder-coupled.

yours sincerely

Thomas

 

me too... the Leica II obviously was with the std. flange distance... so we can add a FOURTH step to the lenses' breeds...

"Unstandardized - uncoupled"

"Standardized - uncoupled"

"Standardized - coupled"

"Ex-Unstandardized - coupled" (the "half-blood son of a noble offspring" or "the noble old lady who succumbed to the flattery of plastic surgery")

[oilman930]

As you can see in the photos of the camera and lens, the lens flange is smaller than the mounting flange on the camera. This is the sign of an unstandardized lens.

 

This lens most likely came off of Leica I from 1930. It would not be until 1931 when the first standardized lenses appeared.

[luigi bertolotti]

As you can see in the photos of the camera and lens, the lens flange is smaller than the mounting flange on the camera. This is the sign of an unstandardized lens.

 

This lens most likely came off of Leica I from 1930. It would not be until 1931 when the first standardized lenses appeared.

 

True - well spotted detail

Some unstandard Elmars also lacked the DOF scale, but this item has it...

[farnz]

I notice that looking through the lens it has a very unusual diaphragm hole with jagged edges. This is quite different from my (much later) 50/3.5 Elmar whose diaphragm hole is round at all apertures.

 

Is it unusual that a lens of this vintage would be marked "50 mm" instead of "5 cm"?

 

Pete.

[oilman930]

Not unusual to still be marked 50 mm. The change to 5 cm markings occurred around the same time the switch from nickel to chrome plated lenses in 1932.

 

1932 is also when the infinity lock moved from the 11 o'clock position to the 7 o'clock position.

 

As with everything that Leitz (Leica) did back then, it's possible to find that the chages were not done together at the same time. In 1933, it was still possible to find a nickel plated lens with a 7 o'clock infinity lock still marked in mm.

 

Put some film in to your new to you Leica II and find out how well the camera / lens combination works out!

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Hallo,

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello oilman930,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

Also, the "wrap around" feet scale is reflective of the c. 1930 time period.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[jc_braconi]

Not unusual to still be marked 50 mm. The change to 5 cm markings occurred around the same time the switch from nickel to chrome plated lenses in 1932.

 

1932 is also when the infinity lock moved from the 11 o'clock position to the 7 o'clock position.

 

As with everything that Leitz (Leica) did back then, it's possible to find that the chages were not done together at the same time. In 1933, it was still possible to find a nickel plated lens with a 7 o'clock infinity lock still marked in mm.

 

Put some film in to your new to you Leica II and find out how well the camera / lens combination works out!

 

Not true, we have done a survey some years ago for this forum

I have personally some cm from 1960..