Medium format sensor

[rramesh]

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With the reputed performance of the new 50mm APO Summicron ASPH, clearly lens performance has moved up a notch. Could it be possible that a future M could have a medium format sensor, or something larger than a full frame?

[lars_bergquist]

In other words, a digital 'Texas Leica'? No. Above all, a Leica M must remain small and handy, and the unfortunate M5 did show where the limit is.

 

And there is already the S2, of course.

 

The old man from the 39mm Screw-Mount Age

[StephenPatterson]

Could it be possible that a future M could have a medium format sensor, or something larger than a full frame?

 

Not possible with M mount lenses.

[lars_bergquist]

Yes, that too. Already with a 24x36mm sensor, the throat diameter of the M bayonet is a restriction on the optical designers.

 

The old man from the Age of the 39mm Screw Mount

[IWC Doppel]

Don't forget you will have to have lenses redesigned to deal with MTF curves beyond 21mm. From what I had understood in any event was the sensor is still the limiting factor, not the lens in any event. More to be had with FF so to speak ?

[adan]

It is a misconception that "medium format" lenses are sharper than 35mm lenses. Often they resolve fewer lines per mm. Their advantage lies in doing so over many more mm (the bigger format).

 

Conversely, the lens in a D-lux 5 probably has a higher absolute resolution than even the new 50mm APO Summicron. Except that it only delivers that resolution over a tiny area (4mm x 6mm or so).

 

Assuming Leica has an engineering motive for more resolution beyond simple bragging rights, to me it would indicate that they plan not a larger sensor, but an eventual jump to 36 or 50 Mpixels within the existing 24 x 36 sensor size.

[jdlaing]

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It is a misconception that "medium format" lenses are sharper than 35mm lenses. Often they resolve fewer lines per mm. Their advantage lies in doing so over many more mm (the bigger format).

 

Conversely, the lens in a D-lux 5 probably has a higher absolute resolution than even the new 50mm APO Summicron. Except that it only delivers that resolution over a tiny area (4mm x 6mm or so).

 

Assuming Leica has an engineering motive for more resolution beyond simple bragging rights, to me it would indicate that they plan not a larger sensor, but an eventual jump to 36 or 50 Mpixels within the existing 24 x 36 sensor size.

 

I think 24 mp would be the next step.

[adan]

Maybe - maybe not. Nikon jumped directly from 12.3 to 36 Mpixels (D700 > D800).

 

And "eventual" means "ultimately; at some later time" - not necessarily "next Sept. in the M10."

[tobey bilek]

All above true.

 

MP count has to double to make the next size print, quadruple to make a linear double.

 

Four 8x10 fit on a single 16x20 so the MP needs to quadruple to get the same resolution

naturally, no interpolation, and assuming you need the same resolution for a 16x20 compared to 8x10.

 

So I will assume a 20/30 % increase in resolution is frequently meaningless.

 

Another factor to consider is the pixels or photosites get smaller the more you put on a sensor. My D700 and D7000 make pretty comparable images at base iso, but the 7000 loses to FX pretty fast at higher iso. For those who don`t know, D700, 12 MP is full frame, 7000, 16MP, is 16x24 mm or APS c. So there are really multiple factors at work including the quality of the on board computer or processing and if the higher count sensor has been able to achieve the higher count without making the individual sites no smaller thus increasing noise.

 

Leica needs to go to 36 MP to get significantly better images and they have to do it without making photosites smaller so you get higher noise. This means the space between sites needs to shrink and that causes other problems. So just like with film, bigger is better in the end. Not to discredit Leica though, they have done amazingly well for a small camera.

[Ted99]

30 x 45 = S2

 

45 x 45 = my dream camera = S1 today's version.

Means that I not have to tilt to have portrait level, that is a' pain when using

the best ball-heads, some times impossible.

I like to switch from 30 x45 landscape and to portrait and also use it as 45 x 45.

For Leicas camera department, I think the customers will think of it as a' medium format camera but at maybe 50 % of the price.

 

 

/Ted

[sdk]

An MF digital RF system could be cool, something like an RF645 digital, but it would require a new sensor and new lens mount.

[rramesh]

30 x 45 = S2

 

45 x 45 = my dream camera = S1 today's version.

Means that I not have to tilt to have portrait level, that is a' pain when using

the best ball-heads, some times impossible.

I like to switch from 30 x45 landscape and to portrait and also use it as 45 x 45.

For Leicas camera department, I think the customers will think of it as a' medium format camera but at maybe 50 % of the price.

 

 

/Ted

So theoretically a square sensor 36x36 should be doable for a Leica M?

[jaapv]

No, because the lens will not cover the corners. The maximum square that fits in the image circle thrown by a lens designed for the 24x36 format is 26x26 mm iirc.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Jaap,

 

I think it might be a touch over 30mm if you check.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[jaques]

obviously it would never happen- but you could have a circular sensor that captured the total lens output radius? That would be funny: you could crop a vertical or horizontal frame from each shot- as you like.... or make huge circular prints! And you could shoot vertical portraits without having to turn the camera on its side....

[Phil U]

A medium format sensor in an M mount is not possible. Medium format prices, however.....

[40mm f/2]

No, because the lens will not cover the corners. The maximum square that fits in the image circle thrown by a lens designed for the 24x36 format is 26x26 mm iirc.

 

Actually 30x30 mm would have a diagonal of 43mm like 24x36 i.e same image circle

[SJP]

30.5941 x 30.5941 to be precise (Pythagoras' law - tells me so).

[jaapv]

There must be a reason why I did not finish my study at your University

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Hallo,

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[jedi996sps]

Not possible with M mount lenses.

 

I recall people said the same thing with the M8? ie that a FF sensor was not possible.