bocaburger Posted May 14, 2012 Share #201 Posted May 14, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have to say, I'm humbled by how serious y'all are about photography. At one time I would've called myself a serious amateur, but I don't think so any more. I'm definitely not serious to the point where I think a $2000 lens isn't good enough for me, that I need a $7000 lens instead. I realize what I want is n't to make a statement or impress anyone with my artistic eye, just to document my travel memories for the inevitable time when I won't be able to travel any more. Undoubtedly an M9 and my Mandler-era lenses is already overkill and an indulgence. I'm not even sure why I've come to this point, but I just can't get into the photo-Grail quest anyore. I wonder if I'm alone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 14, 2012 Posted May 14, 2012 Hi bocaburger, Take a look here New Summicron. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Messsucherkamera Posted May 14, 2012 Share #202 Posted May 14, 2012 They are nice because I found so when I was talking to them, both at the event and in the lobby of my hotel.As for the mind reading, it is more your post-reading. That is a qualification of the stereotyping I was referring to, not the state of mind of the gentlemen. See the quotation marks. I did not know that you had met them in person, otherwise I would not have made the post that I did. Therefore I would like to offer my apologies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 14, 2012 Share #203 Posted May 14, 2012 No problem. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 14, 2012 Share #204 Posted May 14, 2012 I have to say, I'm humbled by how serious y'all are about photography. At one time I would've called myself a serious amateur, but I don't think so any more. I'm definitely not serious to the point where I think a $2000 lens isn't good enough for me, that I need a $7000 lens instead. I realize what I want is n't to make a statement or impress anyone with my artistic eye, just to document my travel memories for the inevitable time when I won't be able to travel any more. Undoubtedly an M9 and my Mandler-era lenses is already overkill and an indulgence. I'm not even sure why I've come to this point, but I just can't get into the photo-Grail quest anyore. I wonder if I'm alone? Not at all. My camera equipment has bags of potential (another way of saying that I have equipment which is beyond my skill). The last thing I ned is a lens of even more resolution and optical perfection. While I can see the appeal, and I applaud Leica for continually pushing the technical limits for perfection, I doubt any image would actually benefit from such a lens. Certainly not one that I would take. That puts me in Position # 4, I think ... Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted May 14, 2012 Share #205 Posted May 14, 2012 I'm glad Leica have made this lens even though I don't need one and the chances of my ever owning one are minuscule. Think of all the other things that might have been made at a similar cost: Police Academy 27; a temporary venue for a minor Olympic sport; a breakfast cereal advertising campaign; or a change of mind by a cabinet minister. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted May 14, 2012 Share #206 Posted May 14, 2012 You cannot compare MTF curves across focal lengths. Accepting that the image capture is different, and the engineering challenge is greater at wider angles why would a comparison not be relevant ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 14, 2012 Share #207 Posted May 14, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) It must be wonderful to be a photographer of such consummate technical skill that you need a €6000 f:2 standard lens to do it justice. I am not one of them. I am barely able to do justice to my €3000 Summilux ASPH. And I have more than half a century of experience under my belt. So the odds are that if you think you need the Apo-Summicron, you are suffering from at least a mild case of hubris. My worry is not that Leica are creating bragging lenses for super-rich non-photographers who would be adequately served by a good camera mobile. If that improves Leica Camera's profits, I'm all for it. No, it is that Leica will cease to produce cameras and lenses that a serious working photographer, commercial or hobbyist, can purchase. Leica gear was never cheap. But it had its custom in the upper-middle-class: Engineers, physicians, dentists (they were richly represented), scientists, teachers (yes, they were middle-class then!) and similar people. People who were prosperous, but not rich, and definitely not super-rich. This is the market that Canon and Nikon (here you may cross yourself) are catering to. Leica must keep a foothold in that market segment in order to be a provider of anything but gold-plated technobling. The old man from the Kodacrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted May 14, 2012 Share #208 Posted May 14, 2012 ... a mild case of hubris. Is that Latin for 'GAS'? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWW Posted May 14, 2012 Share #209 Posted May 14, 2012 I don't believe you have to use any product, tool, or appliance to it's 100% in order to appreciate it. I had numerous cars capable of speeds over 150mph but never even attempted to achieve such a speed on a highway, but appreciated driving it at more sane speeds nevertheless. Why not for photographic products also? If the pleasure of using a product such as the Summicron ASPH is just in the pleasure of knowing the technical excellence of the product, why not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 14, 2012 Share #210 Posted May 14, 2012 I find it quite worrying that one needs to be super-rich to be able to spend 5000 Euro on a hobby or pleasure in these dark days. Or maybe these are halcyon days, with so many people being super-rich and able to spend thousands and thousands on mountain bikes, sailing boats, golf clubs, watches, holidays, mistresses, cases of beer, cigarettes, and indeed cameras.... Please don't decide for others which way they should allocate their disposable income. It is sad enough that half humanity are not in a position to make such decisions. It must be wonderful to be a photographer of such consummate technical skill that you need a €6000 f:2 standard lens to do it justice. I am not one of them. I am barely able to do justice to my €3000 Summilux ASPH. And I have more than or maybe half a century of experience under my belt. So the odds are that if you think you need the Apo-Summicron, you are suffering from at least a mild case of hubris. My worry is not that Leica are creating bragging lenses for super-rich non-photographers who would be adequately served by a good camera mobile. If that improves Leica Camera's profits, I'm all for it. No, it is that Leica will cease to produce cameras and lenses that a serious working photographer, commercial or hobbyist, can purchase. Leica gear was never cheap. But it had its custom in the upper-middle-class: Engineers, physicians, dentists (they were richly represented), scientists, teachers (yes, they were middle-class then!) and similar people. People who were prosperous, but not rich, and definitely not super-rich. This is the market that Canon and Nikon (here you may cross yourself) are catering to. Leica must keep a foothold in that market segment in order to be a provider of anything but gold-plated technobling. The old man from the Kodacrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 14, 2012 Share #211 Posted May 14, 2012 I don't see any problem as long as the current 50/2 is available. Rantings will be justified if it disappears but there is no reason to do so so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 14, 2012 Share #212 Posted May 14, 2012 I find it quite worrying that one needs to be super-rich to be able to spend 5000 Euro on a hobby or pleasure in these dark days. Is this 5,000 or 6,000 EUR? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWW Posted May 14, 2012 Share #213 Posted May 14, 2012 Is this 5,000 or 6,000 EUR? Approximate price depends on inclusive or exclusive of VAT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 14, 2012 Share #214 Posted May 14, 2012 6000, whatever. The point of my argument is that if people of the so-called middle class in the first or even second world tend to go skiing, eat in restaurants, buy BMW cars, jewelry for their wives, the list is endless, buying an expensive lens is not exorbitant. And even if this Summicron is made to such a specifation that the price tag is high in an absolute sense, there is still plenty of money about to make it commercially viable and within reach of plenty of customers. Heck - I was happy Berlin was the one of the cheapest cities I ever found to be a tourist in, but walking out of the hotel the Döner Kebab stall was next to the Bugatti Veyron and Bentley shop, and the watch I liked most in the jewellers window turned out to have a pricetag of 409.000 Euro... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted May 14, 2012 Share #215 Posted May 14, 2012 My worry is not that Leica are creating bragging lenses for super-rich non-photographers who would be adequately served by a good camera mobile. If that improves Leica Camera's profits, I'm all for it. No, it is that Leica will cease to produce cameras and lenses that a serious working photographer, commercial or hobbyist, can purchase. I agree with you 100%, Lars. I couldn't have put it better myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted May 14, 2012 Share #216 Posted May 14, 2012 I find it quite worrying that one needs to be super-rich to be able to spend 5000 Euro on a hobby or pleasure in these dark days.. But it's not just 6000 Euro - it's another 6000 Euro for the body, another 4000 Euro for a 35mm lens, and so on. It would be easy to find a bag with 20000 Euro of kit in it, with only one body. I don't know about you, but this salaried "middle-class" person, living in the first world, with a mortgage to pay, a car to run, a holiday or two to pay for, children to support, had to consider carefully and save money when he wanted to buy an MP last year. He has two lenses for his Ms, one of which is 40 years old. Contrary to popular belief, not every middle class hobbyist photographer can afford to go skiing and take safari holidays every year I'm not having a go at you, Jaap, but I do think that your world and that of many people who would naturallly aspire to and benefit from using and owning Leica kit, do not necessarily coincide. What I am saying is that your circumstances are not typical, and Leica's continual move into seriously big mnoney territory, never seen before, does not bode well for their continued good fortune in the west, and is a serious barrier to entry to new, younger photographers. Times are tough, here, and will be for years to come. I am delighted that Leica have chosen to make the very best 50mm f2 lens in the world. Good for them. Good for the brand. BUT, IMHO, they shouldn't leave their reasonably comfortably off, loyal customer base behind, in their search for a new market in the East, which is clearly where these new products are targeted. They didn't send Jono Slack to China for no reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 14, 2012 Share #217 Posted May 14, 2012 6000, whatever. The point of my argument is that if people of the so-called middle class in the first or even second world tend to go skiing, eat in restaurants, buy BMW cars, jewelry for their wives, the list is endless, buying an expensive lens is not exorbitant... OK but such a price for a 50/2 is simply not in the tradition of Leica or any other camera brand IINW. Again i don't see any problem here as long as the current 50/2 is available but even middle-class guys like yours truly would be furious if it had to disappear the same way as the 24/2.8 asph did to be replaced by a slower lens, which is not in Leica's tradition either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted May 14, 2012 Share #218 Posted May 14, 2012 But it's not just 6000 Euro - it's another 6000 Euro for the body, another 4000 Euro for a 35mm lens, and so on. It would be easy to find a bag with 20000 Euro of kit in it, with only one body. I don't know about you, but this salaried "middle-class" person, living in the first world, with a mortgage to pay, a car to run, a holiday or two to pay for, children to support, had to consider carefully and save money when he wanted to buy an MP last year. He has two lenses for his Ms, one of which is 40 years old. Contrary to popular belief, not every middle class hobbyist photographer can afford to go skiing and take safari holidays every year I'm not having a go at you, Jaap, but I do think that your world and that of many people who would naturallly aspire to and benefit from using and owning Leica kit, do not necessarily coincide. What I am saying is that your circumstances are not typical, and Leica's continual move into seriously big mnoney territory, never seen before, does not bode well for their continued good fortune in the west, and is a serious barrier to entry to new, younger photographers. Times are tough, here, and will be for years to come. I am delighted that Leica have chosen to make the very best 50mm f2 lens in the world. Good for them. Good for the brand. BUT, IMHO, they shouldn't leave their reasonably comfortably off, loyal customer base behind, in their search for a new market in the East, which is clearly where these new products are targeted. They didn't send Jono Slack to China for no reason. Your position would have all the weight in the world if they only made this new Summicron, and Noctilux, and Summilux, but that's not the case. The old Summicron is still made, and they have the Summarit line, not to mention all the great offerings from Zeiss. The real point of contention is the digital rangefinder. No other company makes one, and they're more expensive then the historical, inflation adjusted prices for Leica cameras ($2500 (US) to $5000 range). And I doubt that Leica will make a 'digital CL.' They sold a lot of those CLs back in the 70's, but it killed off the M5 (along with the inevitable shift to SLRs). What you need is another company to get involved. I believe lots of people are upset, because many of the recent offerings have been super expensive. But remember there's more players in this limited field now (Zeiss and Voigtlander). Maybe Leica feels that the 'sanely priced' M mount lenses are already covered by the Summarit line, Zeiss and Voightlander? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TshawM8 Posted May 14, 2012 Share #219 Posted May 14, 2012 It must be wonderful to be a photographer of such consummate technical skill that you need a €6000 f:2 standard lens to do it justice. I am not one of them. I am barely able to do justice to my €3000 Summilux ASPH. And I have more than half a century of experience under my belt. So the odds are that if you think you need the Apo-Summicron, you are suffering from at least a mild case of hubris. My worry is not that Leica are creating bragging lenses for super-rich non-photographers who would be adequately served by a good camera mobile. If that improves Leica Camera's profits, I'm all for it. No, it is that Leica will cease to produce cameras and lenses that a serious working photographer, commercial or hobbyist, can purchase. Leica gear was never cheap. But it had its custom in the upper-middle-class: Engineers, physicians, dentists (they were richly represented), scientists, teachers (yes, they were middle-class then!) and similar people. People who were prosperous, but not rich, and definitely not super-rich. This is the market that Canon and Nikon (here you may cross yourself) are catering to. Leica must keep a foothold in that market segment in order to be a provider of anything but gold-plated technobling. The old man from the Kodacrome Age Lars, you seem to be the person on this thread with the biggest axe to grind. First, I haven't, at least not often, read on this thread peoples post saying they "need" this lens. I think everybody understands that this is a luxury. I am buying one and I would wager to say I don't fit any of the characteristics you place on people buying this lens: I am not super rich, I do not NEED this lens, and finally I am 22. I am buying this lens because I can AFFORD it and I WANT it. I do not yet have a cron and was actually planning on buying a lux to pair with my new M9 so, because I'm young and stupid, I thought I would just buy the new cron. I agree with jaapv, this is, in the grand scheme, not an exorbitant amount to spend on a hobby. Radio control plans, for example, often cost the same amount and more when you get to buying a certain scale (that some people only fly). - Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 14, 2012 Share #220 Posted May 14, 2012 I don't see any problem as long as the current 50/2 is available. Rantings will be justified if it disappears but there is no reason to do so so far. Don't worry. It will disappear. Just like the 24 and 21mm Elmarit lenses did. The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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