jaapv Posted May 13, 2012 Share #161 Posted May 13, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Steve, they said the same thing about the 21mm Elmarit and the 24mm Elmarit. And where are they now? Even for Leica, it is absurd to offer five different 50mm lenses. Especially if two of them are f:2. Their time-honoured system of batch manufacture makes it possible for them to keep many models in the air, but the more numerous they get, the longer the wait will be until a new batch is manufactured. There is a breaking point, and they are dangerously close to it. The old man from the Age of Kodachrome Good point on the production. However, do you really think the new Summicron will sell in such numbers that it will hold up production of other lenses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 Hi jaapv, Take a look here New Summicron. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
JWW Posted May 13, 2012 Share #162 Posted May 13, 2012 It's clear the future direction for the current lenses as they get upgraded and more expensive. Makes sense to upgrade lens capability for the new M model capability. Start saving up some money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted May 13, 2012 Share #163 Posted May 13, 2012 Steve, they said the same thing about the 21mm Elmarit and the 24mm Elmarit. And where are they now? Even for Leica, it is absurd to offer five different 50mm lenses. Especially if two of them are f:2. Their time-honoured system of batch manufacture makes it possible for them to keep many models in the air, but the more numerous they get, the longer the wait will be until a new batch is manufactured. There is a breaking point, and they are dangerously close to it. The old man from the Age of Kodachrome What me makes to believe that the old summicron will stay in the portfolio is that they pronounce this right in the first sentence of the new summicron product brochure. This also looks to me that Leica knows that they need an entry level for the M-System. Regards, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 13, 2012 Share #164 Posted May 13, 2012 That, and the fact that it would unbalance the price structure of the fifties if they dropped it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 13, 2012 Share #165 Posted May 13, 2012 I own the current 35mm and 50mm Summilux lenses. These, we hear, are now old fuzzies because of their low resolution/definition. But I know, sometimes painfully well, that even at their full 1.4 apertures, the definition I get in my images is (apart from the large amount of defocus blur caused by a wide aperture that lighting conditions may force upon me, or I may deliberately choose) nearly entirely limited by two factors: My technique, and subject movement. I do know from experience that when these factors work out right, I can make a visually sharp image with a diagonal equal to the viewing distance. What people may find if they attack that image with magnifiers, light microscopes, electron microscopes or whatever is immaterial to me because that is not what my photography, or your photography, is for. In other words, the lens is not a limiting factor. I do also own a 50mm collapsible Elmar of 1960 vintage. Even at mid-apertures, that lens is slightly softer than a current 50mm 'pre-apo' Summicron is, and here, the difference is usually noticeable under practical conditions of use. So I use that lens when I very occasionally do want that effect. Let's face it: Even under ideal circumstances, there will be an amount of unintended defocusing. There will also be a loss of resolution, in relation to the subject, because even an ideal aberration-less lens will suffer from diffraction. With the two Summiluxes I mentioned, these losses will (again under these ideal conditions) be safely below the threshold of perception. And if the image is twice as far below that threshold matters not a whit, even if we are technically able to print or display to that level of resolution, because what we can't see we can't see. Until we are retrofitted with the new improved Mk2 Eyeball. If there are real, and not contrived situations where the Apo-Summicron does offer a visible advantage, then I want to see that advantage. And when we can see it, we can have a meaningful discussion about cost efficiency, but the outcome will be personal because dictated by taste. But as long as I prefer to photograph living, breathing subjects offhand under difficult lighting, my current equipment does easily surpass my personal limitations. And it will surpass yours too. The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 13, 2012 Share #166 Posted May 13, 2012 What me makes to believe that the old summicron will stay in the portfolio is that they pronounce this right in the first sentence of the new summicron product brochure. [ ... ]Regards, Steve People keep repeating that mantra, probably in order to reassure themselves. But bare reiteration will not make it true. I have already told you why. The facts won't go away. The old man from the Age of Kodachrome (and were is Kodachrome now? Hodie mihi cras tibi.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 13, 2012 Share #167 Posted May 13, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good point on the production. However, do you really think the new Summicron will sell in such numbers that it will hold up production of other lenses? Only moderately, of course. But the number of straws that a camel can carry is not infinite. The old man from the Camel Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted May 13, 2012 Share #168 Posted May 13, 2012 I had been wondering if Leica would release a super lens for the 50mm, the MTF graph looks even a little better than Elmar 24 at f/5.6 (the SE21 and 18 are amazing too). The question is if there will be a difference on a high resolution sensor between the new 50mm and the lower priced Elmar 24 at f/5.6 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted May 13, 2012 Share #169 Posted May 13, 2012 It is problematic to compare a 50mm and a 24mm lens, because the 24 has a reproduction ratio that is just half that of the 50. This means that detail that the 50mm lens (and the sensor, and the printing/display system, let's not forget these) can capture, will drop below the table with the 24, simply because they are wiped out by the Nyquist limit, residual lens aberration or whatnot. Remember that in a MTF graph, the curve for 40lp/mm is always lower than that for 20lp. That is a given. The old man from the Kodachrome Age Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWW Posted May 13, 2012 Share #170 Posted May 13, 2012 The next few years will tell us if the mega pixel race and now the lens optimization race will lead us into increased equipment sophistication and expense with little practical return, besides pixel peeping. I suppose it's analogous to automobiles with higher and higher performance from cars with little practical purpose on public roads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldp Posted May 13, 2012 Share #171 Posted May 13, 2012 That was and is the history of film cameras, better finer grained film and sharper lenses. Digital will be no different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted May 13, 2012 Share #172 Posted May 13, 2012 The next few years will tell us ... Will tell us what? What do you need a few more years for? Aren't the recent 150 years enough to tell us that with time, there's always some sort of progress? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 13, 2012 Share #173 Posted May 13, 2012 Well, maybe it will tell us whether megapixel and MTF races are progress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWW Posted May 13, 2012 Share #174 Posted May 13, 2012 I thought it interesting that Thorsten Overgaard seems very satisfied with his early 50mm Summicron. Sometimes I wish I could do the same and disregard all these new announcements and posts regarding the latest tech marvel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMB Posted May 13, 2012 Share #175 Posted May 13, 2012 Let's face it: Even under ideal circumstances, there will be an amount of unintended defocusing. There will also be a loss of resolution, in relation to the subject, because even an ideal aberration-less lens will suffer from diffraction. With the two Summiluxes I mentioned, these losses will (again under these ideal conditions) be safely below the threshold of perception. And if the image is twice as far below that threshold matters not a whit, even if we are technically able to print or display to that level of resolution, because what we can't see we can't see. Until we are retrofitted with the new improved Mk2 Eyeball. If there are real, and not contrived situations where the Apo-Summicron does offer a visible advantage, then I want to see that advantage. And when we can see it, we can have a meaningful discussion about cost efficiency, but the outcome will be personal because dictated by taste. But as long as I prefer to photograph living, breathing subjects offhand under difficult lighting, my current equipment does easily surpass my personal limitations. And it will surpass yours too. The old man from the Kodachrome Age I could not agree more. A very fine lens, no doubt, but i doubt one can really realize the full potential of that lens in normal shooting conditions. I found quite telling that the video for that lens showed a stidio shoot with tons of artificial light. Anyway, im happy that i still have the old 50cron. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted May 13, 2012 Share #176 Posted May 13, 2012 ... but I doubt one can really realize the full potential of that lens in normal shooting conditions. Especially not with these ludicrously short focusing throws in the modern Leica M standard and telephoto lenses. ... I don't see anything wrong with the front ring inscription. Could you explain what the problem is with it. If you don't see it then I can't explain it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardgb Posted May 13, 2012 Share #177 Posted May 13, 2012 I like this thread, it's extremely entertaining. Actually I meant it with a grain of seriousness, too. As I understand it, it is a massive achievement to construct a lens with performance such as that which the new lens supposedly has. And that costs a lot to develop. Still, did the world really need this lens? I don't think so and I am wondering for whom, really, Leica made it, just as I wonder for whom they made the monochrome M and why it costs so much more than the M9. Actually - and I stress that I only intend this comparison as a matter of economic priniciple and nothing else - raising prices in this manner reminds a bit about the prostitute who realised she made more money by raising prices significantly, thus having to work less and attracting more wealthy customers as she was then perceived as a luxury prostitute (was it in Freakonomics this was described? I forget). But it is likely pointless to discuss the metaphysics behind Leica's business decisions. Clearly any company wants to make as much money as possible and when the fan base is as loyal as Leica's why not cash in on it? There comes a point when customers say 'enough'. I'd be willing to bet we're still - objectively in terms of the whole client base - far from that point. Thanks to the 'girl' tip, I was struck that the whole thread has a ring of Barry Manilow about it: Some girls will, some girls won't Some girls need a lot of lovin', and some girls don't Well, I know I've got the fever but I don't know why Some say they will and some girls lie So here I am in front of you Not really knowing what to do My heart is feeling something new Nervously I turn away from you I see those looks you're sending me Is this the way it's meant to be? It's something we should talk about Just give me time to work it out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 13, 2012 Share #178 Posted May 13, 2012 Curious to revert to those old scripts indeed but what we're seing here is just a drawing i guess. Now i don't see anything wrong with the pitch of the focusing ring so far. Looks similar to that of the 50/2 v4 at first glance. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/179142-new-summicron/?do=findComment&comment=2010726'>More sharing options...
Peter H Posted May 13, 2012 Share #179 Posted May 13, 2012 No seriously I am not trying to be combative in any way but I genuinely can't see what the problem is. Please point out or point me to where I can find out how the new lens script doesn't look correct. I'm with you Paul. Is he referring to the fact that the word "Leica" at the top is the "correct" way up as we look at it, whereas it should be upside-down if the entire text were a straightened-out continuous line of script? Or rather, the lower script should be inverted so it all faces inward. Like on your 90mm Elmarit M. Its the only thing I can think of, and I can't see the problem with it at all really. But I don't spend a lot of time reading the front of my lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 13, 2012 Share #180 Posted May 13, 2012 Yes, that's the only 'odd' thing I can see with the front inscription. I don't understand why it is worthy of any fuss. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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