Einst_Stein Posted April 14, 2012 Share #1 Posted April 14, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Zeiss ZM 85mm Sonnar could well be the most wanted non-Leica M lens among Leica M users. Alas it's "temperary" discontinued further notice. This is one of the two ZM not manufactured in Japan. Zeiss said it is due to the complicated structure and expensive manufacturing process. It must have enough batch volume to justify the production. What makes it so difficult for Japanese foundry to pick up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 14, 2012 Posted April 14, 2012 Hi Einst_Stein, Take a look here Somewhat OT: Why Japanese Foundry Can't Manufacture ZM 85mm Sonnar. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wattsy Posted April 14, 2012 Share #2 Posted April 14, 2012 I don't get the impression this lens sold in great numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted April 14, 2012 Share #3 Posted April 14, 2012 Zeiss ZM 85mm Sonnar could well be the most wanted non-Leica M lens among Leica M users. ... I doubt it; that title is most likely held by the 60/1.2 Hexanon-M judging by its rarity, its ever-increasing price, and the volume of mentions it gets on this and other forums. That's not to say that the Sonnar's not a well-respected and sought after lens of course. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share #4 Posted April 14, 2012 I don't get the impression this lens sold in great numbers. You are right, but I meant that, according to the many reviews, 85mm Sonnar is one of the ZMs that recognized more than the other ZM to be "better" than the correspondent Leica parts. I think ZM 25mm/2.8 and 21mm/2.8 could be in this category too, but they arfe made in Japan and priced "right". No, I don't want get into the debate if it's really better or right, but I'm interested in these lenses. ZM 21 and 25 are available, while 85mm Sonnar is not. It could be, as you said, not bring in enough business, hence being held in production. But, if it could be manufactured in Japan, maybe the price could go down, and the volume could jump up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertJRB Posted April 14, 2012 Share #5 Posted April 14, 2012 You are right, but I meant that, according to the many reviews, 85mm Sonnar is one of the ZMs that recognized more than the other ZM to be "better" than the correspondent Leica parts. I think ZM 25mm/2.8 and 21mm/2.8 could be in this category too, but they arfe made in Japan and priced "right". No, I don't want get into the debate if it's really better or right, but I'm interested in these lenses. ZM 21 and 25 are available, while 85mm Sonnar is not. It could be, as you said, not bring in enough business, hence being held in production. But, if it could be manufactured in Japan, maybe the price could go down, and the volume could jump up? I don't think the 15mm and 85mm ZM (both are made in germany) are said to be better than their leica counterparts because they don't really have them. The 85mm compared to the 90mm APO cron is just a total different lens with could easily be used next to each other. More a portrait lens where the 90 cron is more an all rounder. The 15mm is really good but lacks coupling and is quite big compared to the WATE. But being a bit wider and being well corrected it has some really good advantages. Again the leica being more an all round lens where the 15 is more the specialist lens. Don't know the exact reason why they can't be made by cosina but I can imagine zeiss is asking for some level of quality for them to use the name. When cosina could not reach that level because of the small tolerances with these two lenses they decided to do it them self. In relation to build quality both are ahead of the rest of the ZM series. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sp12 Posted April 14, 2012 Share #6 Posted April 14, 2012 I doubt it; that title is most likely held by the 60/1.2 Hexanon-M judging by its rarity, its ever-increasing price, and the volume of mentions it gets on this and other forums. That's not to say that the Sonnar's not a well-respected and sought after lens of course. Pete. I hated the Hexanon. I'll take a .95 or even 1 Notci every time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted April 14, 2012 Share #7 Posted April 14, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I hated the Hexanon. I'll take a .95 or even 1 Notci every time. Yes that's understandable and I agree with you but they're both made by Leica. The OP talked about the most wanted non-Leica lens. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 14, 2012 Share #8 Posted April 14, 2012 It is not a very popular lens, although said to be quite good. The short class has some exceedingly strong contenders - the industry-standard 90 Summicron AA, the Elmarit-M 90, and several others, like the 75 mm offerings by Leica and Voigtlander. All with their own strong points and not a bad lens in the bunch. So the Sonnar is unlikely to sell in huge numbers. I guess Zeiss’ problems are the same as those of other optics manufacturers: some optical glass types are in short supply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted April 14, 2012 Share #9 Posted April 14, 2012 How does it perform wide open? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sp12 Posted April 14, 2012 Share #10 Posted April 14, 2012 Yes that's understandable and I agree with you but they're both made by Leica. The OP talked about the most wanted non-Leica lens. Pete. I'd take a Zeiss something or other 50ish over it too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted April 15, 2012 Share #11 Posted April 15, 2012 I doubt if Q/C prevents Cosina from making the lens. Manufacturing decisions are mainly made on economics, considering the sales volume. Possibly they see Cosina as economical for higher-volume lenses, and the volume of these lenses was below the threshold where setting up Cosina made sense. It could also be labor union issues, where their union agreements did not permit moving production, but would permit discontinuing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einst_Stein Posted April 15, 2012 Author Share #12 Posted April 15, 2012 I doubt if Q/C prevents Cosina from making the lens. Manufacturing decisions are mainly made on economics, considering the sales volume. Possibly they see Cosina as economical for higher-volume lenses, and the volume of these lenses was below the threshold where setting up Cosina made sense. It could also be labor union issues, where their union agreements did not permit moving production, but would permit discontinuing. Thanks for answer my question. I found a lot of people like to mumbling the side topic than response the direct question. I believe you hit the right point. Maybe Sonnar needs a lot of manual work. The Japanese foundry, I'd guess, could be mainly robot workers. That would explains the superior price and the inferior QC and etc. Ironically, the robot workers are supposed to have more consistent QC than humam/maual workers. But maybe this does not apply to optical. products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted January 25, 2013 Share #13 Posted January 25, 2013 In case anyone still interested in an answer: Zeiss (and to a certain degree Leica as well) has unique know-how in designing and manufacturing optomechanical systems. The majority of the production-workers is factory-trained in a craft for 42 months, the software and production-technology used is partly propritary and developed in-house. In case of Zeiss, they have their own glass supplier (Schott - worldwide market leader) and a huge R&D-staff/budget mainly for medical and lithographic optical systems - some of these developments are later adapted to photo optics. Zeiss defines crucial "core comptences" which are not outsourced or given to any supplier, other technologies (basic lens design, measurement equipment) are considered less valuable and given to companies like Cosina to manufacture "Zeiss-lenses". Today, Zeiss is focused on professional markets, investments into consumer technology have been rare. Standard photo lenses are considered "consumer" and investments at their own facilities are minimized, therefore suppliers like Cosina or Kyocera are favoured. More complex designs like the ZM15 contain more demanding processes which are not given to suppliers or subcontractors. Leica or German Zeiss lenses hardly contain more "handmade" components than the lenses from Cosina (hardly any robots involved in hq-lens-assembly anywhere, also not Canon or Nikon), handgrinding of aspherics is not done anymore - but the automated processes involved and the trained staff is exclusive. The mechanical components are also CNC-machined - only assembly and fine-adjustment is done by hand (again, by factory-trained people and propably with the luxury of more time and stricter QC - lower wages/economy of scale alone doesn't explain the lower prices of Cosina). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 25, 2013 Share #14 Posted January 25, 2013 I asked about the 85mm Sonnar at the Zeiss-stand on last Photokina. The man said - not going into details - that Zeiss was very unhappy about the problems they had with the focussing mount. Apparently too many examples were sub-standard and didn't pass the quality control. In his test, Sean Reid had two examples of the lens: the first one was bad (decentration?), the second one was good and he praised it more than the 90mm Apo-Summicron.- As demand for expensive lenses with long focal length is never high, the production costs seem to have been much higher than the revenues. I don't think that a production elsewhere would have changed this situation. Even Leica has had it's bad experiences with focussing mounts: Tri-Elmar (Mate), the first batches of the new 3.4/21 were recalled, the delay for the 50mm Apo-Summicron-M may also have it's reasons in the mount. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 25, 2013 Share #15 Posted January 25, 2013 Thanks for answer my question. I found a lot of people like to mumbling the side topic than response the direct question. Perhaps the lens is clouded in some mythical glow, but put simply the lack of success is that the lens is an 85mm. Sorry, that may not have been clear, an 85mm lens. Now do an equation and discover why Leica users are not overwhelmed enough to run out and buy it often enough to make it a commercial proposition. And while Zeiss or Cosina can each make claims about manufacturing tolerances, if nobody can reliably build it, it is a bad design. And if not enough people are willing to put up with having no built in viewfinder for it, it is a bad design for Leica users. So there you go, I did the difficult part of the equation for you. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivar B Posted January 26, 2013 Share #16 Posted January 26, 2013 Not that long ago I asked a US dealer about this lens, and was told that Zeiss would actually supply one if ordered, despite the lens being officially discontinued. If this still holds I do not know. I see some dealers still offer the 4/85, but I have no idea how this lens performs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick in CO Posted January 27, 2013 Share #17 Posted January 27, 2013 How does it perform wide open? Pete. This was not wide open, maybe f4 as I was shooting out a car window as the image appeared and wanted more depth. India: the Old & New By the way, an approx 50% crop. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/177168-somewhat-ot-why-japanese-foundry-cant-manufacture-zm-85mm-sonnar/?do=findComment&comment=2225725'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 27, 2013 Share #18 Posted January 27, 2013 Not that long ago I asked a US dealer about this lens, and was told that Zeiss would actually supply one if ordered, despite the lens being officially discontinued. If this still holds I do not know. I see some dealers still offer the 4/85, but I have no idea how this lens performs. I just bought one. First impressions: unsung little gem which is as good as the Elmarit-M. I cannot say anything about it in flare situations yet as the lens hood was backordered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted January 27, 2013 Share #19 Posted January 27, 2013 I just bought one. First impressions: unsung little gem which is as good as the Elmarit-M.I cannot say anything about it in flare situations yet as the lens hood was backordered. Thanks Jaap, I've had my eye on this lens for a while but have not been able to get any information on it's performance. Can you provide any more? Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 28, 2013 Share #20 Posted January 28, 2013 Not yet, I am in the mountains and away from my main systems for a couple of weeks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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