Nikon vs Leica M8.2 Colour fidelity

[Stealth3kpl]

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How do Nikon users feel about the colour rendition of their Leica M8.2s? I've just received my M8.2 and shoot sRGB DNG and process through Capture One 4. I can not get the colour accuracy straight from camera as I can with my D700 NEFs opened in NX2. My Nikon files just look right comparing the screen image with the houses across the street. Is this something I just have to accept since I'm not a software wizkid. Incidently, I find no benefit in using the various camera colour profiles in Capture One 4. It's also not a white balance issue. I did wonder if it might be due to me not using IR filters. Have Nikon owners found that the the colour fidelity of their Leica files is improved for painted houses (!) with the IR filters or and I barking up the wrong tree?

I have to say that the sharpness of the images is superb - the resolution of sensor and my 35/2 at f8 is much better than the D700 and 50/1.4 at f8 (as it should be!!).

Pete

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[andybarton]

You should always be using your IR filters on your M8, otherwise you are starting the race against the D700 with one shoe off.

 

Have you tried shooting in the Adobe profile in camera, rather than sRGB?

 

Are you shooting RAW in both cameras?

 

Do you have the latest FW updates, on both cameras?

 

Are you test shooting the same view, under the same lighting conditions, with both cameras?

 

Have you tried processing both RAW files with the same software?

[Stealth3kpl]

You should always be using your IR filters on your M8, otherwise you are starting the race against the D700 with one shoe off.

Filters on order.

 

Have you tried shooting in the Adobe profile in camera, rather than sRGB?

Yes.

 

Are you shooting RAW in both cameras?

Yes, DNG in M8.2, NEF in D700.

 

Do you have the latest FW updates, on both cameras?

Yes

 

Are you test shooting the same view, under the same lighting conditions, with both cameras?

Yes. Just now out of the front door!

 

Have you tried processing both RAW files with the same software?

Nefs won't be recognized by Capture One, DNGs are not recognized by Nikon NX2.

Pete

[andybarton]

Download a trial copy of Aperture or Lightroom 3 and process both files.

 

Then you will be eliminating as many variables as possible.

[Stealth3kpl]

Do people feel that out of camera colour fidelity of DNG files opened in Lightroom is as accurate as Nikon NEF files opened in NX2? I'm trying to determine whether I'm wasting my time trying to get the Leica files to match the colours of the real world. Should I just accept the colour profile of the M8.2?

Pete

[pharyngula]

You said you aren't using the UV/IR filters right? I think you should wait until you have those in hand.

 

I have the D700 and 50 f1.4G and the M8.2 with 35 Cron and I shoot the M with the UV/IR filter. I open both NEFs and DNGs in Aperture 3 only. IMHO, the untouched out of camera RAW files look better (i.e., more to my liking colorwise) from the M8.2 under these conditions. And once I factor in how the 35 Cron draws (and the sharpness), I'm pretty much hooked on my M8.2.

 

I have not, however, done a direct 1:1 comparison on identical subject with identical lighting. So, I shall try that as soon as practical and see if my opinion still holds - I expect it to but I think it has to be compared under more controlled conditions as Andy points out.

[Luke_Miller]

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I shoot with the Nikon D300/D700/D3 and the Leica M8.2 (with IR filters on my 28 and 50 Summicrons.) Processing is in LR2.7 and LR3Beta2. I also use Capture One Version 5.1. I have not done head to head comparisons, but I notice no color differences when using the correct camera profiles.

 

Edited to add:

 

With Lightroom I use profiles I generated from a gretagmacbeth ColorChecker card. So I would expect the results to be similar since the bodies are being profiled to a common reference.

[pgk]

FWIW I have just carried out a test of my 35mm f/2 canon EF Lens and a 35mm f/2.8 Elmarit-R adapted to Canon. Both on a tripod mounted 5D2. There is a colour difference between the resulting files - clearly as a result of the different lenses since there were no other variables. There will be colour differences due to sensor, processing, lens, etc. You may well adjust the files of your Nikon and Leica until they are close but they are unlikely to ever be identical.

[Stealth3kpl]

You said you aren't using the UV/IR filters right? I think you should wait until you have those in hand.

 

I have the D700 and 50 f1.4G and the M8.2 with 35 Cron and I shoot the M with the UV/IR filter. I open both NEFs and DNGs in Aperture 3 only. IMHO, the untouched out of camera RAW files look better (i.e., more to my liking colorwise) from the M8.2 under these conditions. And once I factor in how the 35 Cron draws (and the sharpness), I'm pretty much hooked on my M8.2.

 

I have not, however, done a direct 1:1 comparison on identical subject with identical lighting. So, I shall try that as soon as practical and see if my opinion still holds - I expect it to but I think it has to be compared under more controlled conditions as Andy points out.

 

This is very encouraging, thanks. I aim to get Lightroom 3 when out (hoping the high iso noise control is much improved).

Pete

[Stealth3kpl]

With Lightroom I use profiles I generated from a gretagmacbeth ColorChecker card. So I would expect the results to be similar since the bodies are being profiled to a common reference.

 

Where can I read more about this process?

 

Do you feel that the colours are accurate (to the real world subject?)

Pete

[Sailronin]

see my photos on the thread "Interesting comparison" for a very informal look at this issue.

 

Dave

[rhom]

Hi Pete,

 

I purchased a used M8 w/28mm/2.8 Elmarit ASPH, but I have been a dedicated D700 user for two years (w/Nikkor 20-35/2.8D, 35-70/2.8D, 70-200/2.8 VR, 50/1.4 Zeiss ZM, 28/2.8 AIS). I did not buy my M8 to replace my D700. I use Nikon Capture NX2 and Lightroom 3 Beta for PP, and always use a Leica IR filter when shooting the M8. I have no experience with Capture One.

 

I shoot only RAW with both cameras and find the color fidelity to be very comparable with these two cameras, with equivalent PP.

 

My main point is "equivalent PP." My experience is that, because NX2 is the only NEF converter than can read ALL of Nikon's proprietary NEF parameters, it can generate nearly perfect images that reflect what I shot (on a default, just open-the-file basis). IMHO, LR3 Beta does not do nearly as good a job with D700 NEFs or with M8 DNGs. However, one should be aware that NX2 is doing A LOT of PP to generate its default rendering, it is translating all of the user's preferred D700 settings as well as known corrective parameters of any associated Nikkor lens into this default image. LR3B cannot do this.

 

I would be especially aware that the D700's Picture Style settings can boost color saturation and contrast settings very significantly and whichever style is chosen by the user is what NX2 re-creates from the resulting NEF. LR3B attempts to do the same in its Camera Calibration pre-sets. Might also want to check out Thom Hogan's various reviews of the D3, D3s, D700, D300 series for his comments about their color rendition (i.e. tendency for slightly higher saturation as a default).

 

Last, I have found that some lenses have significant contrast differences, which affect color, in my view. For examples, the Zeiss ZM has significantly higher contrast than my older Nikkors, a 35mm/3.5 Summaron that I acquired because I like its "look" has much lower contrast than the 28mm Elmarit ASPH. This makes it even more difficult to compare "apples and apples" between these two camera systems.

 

Perhaps the best way for me to respond to your original question is that, if I take a pleasing D700 NX2 NEF image, I can take a similar M8 DNG and easily make LR3B adjustments that approximate the same color rendition. Not exact, but close enough for me to not ever think of choosing one of these fine cameras over the other on the basis of color rendition.

 

Hope that this helps.

 

Best,

 

Rick

[andybarton]

Slightly OT, but I have a D700. I can't use NX2 because it's expired and it expects me to pay for it. If you don't pay for it, Nikon give you no software at all to process your RAW files, even when you've paid £1800 for the body.

 

Not impressed with that at all

[ho_co]

Yes, Nikon and Leica use different color palettes.

 

See Puts' comments on M9 vs D3 colors.

 

See KammaGamma � Articles � Leica M8 Colors, on M8 vs D200 colors.

 

 

As I understand it, the preset "Adobe Standard" is designed to adjust camera outputs so they all look similar.

 

Other presets are designed to attempt to reproduce within the Adobe product line what the camera manufacturers intended.

 

 

Also, when you refer to IR and UV/IR filters, I'm sure you mean UV/IR-cut filters? Technically, a UV filter transmits UV and an IR filter transmits IR.

[Luke_Miller]

Where can I read more about this process?

 

Do you feel that the colours are accurate (to the real world subject?)

Pete

 

Pete

 

I use the Adobe DNG Profile Editor which allows me to create profiles for RAW files from any body supported in Lightroom (not just DNG files.) This link describes how it is done. With the DNG Profile Editor you can edit existing profiles or create new ones if you have a ColorChecker card.

 

DNG Profiles:Editor - Adobe Labs

 

 

The ColorChecker card is one of the industry standards for color accuracy. You photograph it (usually in daylight and then again in tungsten lighting) and then the DNG Profile Editor uses those files to generates a Lightroom/ACR camera profile that corrects for any color errors. I repeat the process for each body. I find the process to be very effective and I generally prefer my profiles to those produced by Adobe although the current Adobe one are very good.

[sandymc]

Nefs won't be recognized by Capture One

 

????!!! Of course Capture One will recognize NEFs......

 

Sandy

[Stealth3kpl]

????!!! Of course Capture One will recognize NEFs......

 

Sandy

 

Mine doesn't!! Where am I going wrong?

Pete

[photophile]

I have been using the D200 and the M8c for several years. I calibrate my screen with Macbeth and pp in LR3 beta ( now ) but always used LR. I find the colors straight from the camera more muted, less "digital", and more realistic from the Leica - though I have modiified the profile a bit to reduce the slight overly red trend from the M8. The vibrancy from the Nikon, is more noticable - but less to my liking - so I mute that down a bit. Look online for some of the profiles which can adjust your files, to your liking. But, they can be made to look very similar.

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[Stealth3kpl]

I've achieved much more representative colours by downloading a free trial of lightroom 2.7 and using profile "adobe standard" rather than the capture one default profile. I hope Lightroom 3 has a nicer interface than L2.7.

Pete

[!Nomad64]

Dear Stealth3kpl,

 

I second Andreas Feininger's point of view, i.e. that the color is an opinion and that there's no such thing as color fidelity but color renditions that one might like more or less.

As you say that your Nikon files just look right comparing the screen image with the houses across the street I'd think that this has a lot to do with your screen calibration too. Probably the combination of the screen calibration and the rendition of your Nikon files please your eyes more than what Leica files do. You could find a way to recalibrate the screen in order to give Leica files the same outlook of the Nikons and you'd see that at this stage the Nikon files would appear somewhat "strange".

The variables are a lot and color fidelity is a matter of debates since the invention of color photography. Digital simply introduced new variables (and complications).

As of today, the purpose is to get first consistency between what you see on the screen and what comes out of the printer, then adjusting the color settings to one's will.

So, if you really want to do the things as a pro, you should intervene on all the post production links.

 

Besides, having owned a Nikon D300 that coexisted for some time with my M8 before giving it away, I'd say that Nikon's colors are (were) a bit more brilliant, or, if you prefer, Leica's are towards neutral, but not unpleasantly so. Just two different philosophies. Nikon's outcomes were a bit more "mainstream", so to say. But that's just my opinion and I'm talking about impressions rather than facts.

 

Cheers,

Bruno