johnbuckley Posted July 15, 2011 Share #1 Posted July 15, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) My M9 has been consistently reliable for nearly two years. Yes, occasionally the battery needs to come out for a moment and go right back in. But I haven't really lost any important shots. Last night, however, I sat for a long time in a field behind Jackson Hole's Elk Refuge, waiting for the moon to rise. The night before, from a much greater distance, it had been spectacular. I misjudged when it would rise above a particular hill, so sat for a long time, with tripod and camera prepositioned. No problem; it was a lovely evening to sit with my back to the Tetons and wait. Except when the moon finally did rise -- it was again spectacular, by the way -- the camera froze. Dead battery. Had to take it off the tripod to reset the battery. Put back on. Fail. Now it said the SD Card was full. But it wasn't. Reset again, having to take it off the tripod, etc. When it finally came to, the moon was high in the sky, and I was ready to kick my camera and tripod from here to Idaho. Serious question: why would it say the SD Card was full, when it wasn't? What can I do to prevent a recurrence at a critical moment? It is a 16G SanDisk Extreme, about 2/3rds full. You can imagine, from what's posted below, the sequence we could have had... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/156970-after-two-years-of-m9-reliability-a-frustrating-evening/?do=findComment&comment=1735308'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Hi johnbuckley, Take a look here After Two Years Of M9 Reliability, A Frustrating Evening. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
250swb Posted July 15, 2011 Share #2 Posted July 15, 2011 Are you sure the SD wasn't full of other stuff, files the M9 couldn't see, maybe from another camera, or you haven't been formatting the card and its got the usual residual bits of data taking up space? Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpitt Posted July 15, 2011 Share #3 Posted July 15, 2011 Hello John, I can relate to your frustration. something like that happened to me when I got my M8 for a few weeks. I was also using a 16GB card and I suspect that at least in my case it had something to do with the crossing of 999 to something below 999 on the counter. I loaded some movies on the card to reduce available space to about 10GB which is on the M8 about 900 RAW images and it never happened again. See this post: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/163316-possible-card-full-bug.html It would be interesting to know if you think this was similar on your M9. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrogers Posted July 15, 2011 Share #4 Posted July 15, 2011 A shame about missing the photo (and having a fine moment ruined with frustration). If the battery was dead or near dead, that's likely the problem---if the camera freezes partway through a card access, it could leave the card in an inconsistent state. The camera is supposed to reserve enough power to finish anything (it should turn itself off safely well before the battery is fully exhausted), but as batteries age they become less predictable to the device electronics. If you notice that a battery is dying rapidly after charging, don't use it, replace it. I agree with Steve, always start with a card formatted in your camera, and reformat after using the card for anything else (including downloading from the card). If just popping the same battery in and out made the camera okay, then you may be getting bit by the M9's finicky SD card behavior. You're using just the sort of card that some of us have had trouble with (I couldn't get long-term reliable behavior from 8Gb Sandisk Extreme 30M/s class 10 cards, but have had great luck with 4Gb Extreme 20M/s class 6). After a frustrating card failure, I tested a half dozen cards---one new Sandisk Ultras, a new Sandisk Extreme, a previous generation Extreme, and even older Extreme III and Ultra II cards, among others. With each card, I filled the camera buffer, viewed, zoomed and deleted images while others were flushing to the card, and repeated until the card was full. The new Ultra failed (about 2/3 into full card), the new Extreme failed (about 1/3 into full card). The older Sandisk cards all worked perfectly. The previous generation 4Gb extreme (20M/s class 6) was fastest of the successful cards, so I bought four of them. I have not had a single problem in thousands of shots since. I gave away five new cards that failed on the M9, and all five have been flawless in my family's other cameras (panasonics, canons and olympus, some of them for thousands of shots). Good luck, Clyde Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwolf Posted July 15, 2011 Share #5 Posted July 15, 2011 John, Two years without a glitch is pretty darn good. Maybe that's the way to look at it. When you think about it, countless things beyond the camera could have caused this miss. A flat tire. A failed alarm. A drunken driver. Rain. War.... Isn't that life? Anyway, the good thing about the moon rising is that it repeats every day. Hopefully your M9 will be ready next time. Love the posted shot. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 15, 2011 Share #6 Posted July 15, 2011 Still, I would suggest that a camera that needs an occasional battery out reset is NOT functioning without a glitch. A well-running M9 is not supposed to do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted July 15, 2011 Share #7 Posted July 15, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Still, I would suggest that a camera that needs an occasional battery out reset is NOT functioning without a glitch. A well-running M9 is not supposed to do that. Agreed. Mine has never done that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photolandscape Posted July 15, 2011 Share #8 Posted July 15, 2011 I've had great luck with my M9. But I had a very similar experience, based on your description, with my M8. And unfortunately it happened after I had traveled across the US to see the space shuttle Endeavour launch in March 2007, at 2:30 AM. Never encountered that problem again, but it couldn't have happened at a less auspicious time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washington Posted July 15, 2011 Share #9 Posted July 15, 2011 It happens to us all it seems no matter what your shooting with. You’re all set and ready to go and the bear shows up! If it isn’t one thing it’s another. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share #10 Posted July 15, 2011 Thank you all. This is very helpful. So first, this was a properly formatted SD card. I've never used this card to, for example, put new firmware on the camera. And I had just the day before pruned about 100 photos off it, so that the count showed I had over 500 pictures left on it. However -- and here's where the advice from Clyde rings a bell -- the battery was just below the halfway mark. And I had set the camera with bracketing on, so as possibly to experiment with HDR stitching in post-processing. This may have put a strain on the battery, sending all haywire. I agree with Jaap that having occasionally to pull the battery out and put it back in may indicate an imperfectly working M9. However, with my M8, that happened all the time, and with the M9 it is a once every 100 uses occasion. A pain to be sure, but for me not worth sending the camera to NJ or Solms. Many thanks for the advice, and I commiserate with those who've had similar issues. JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted July 15, 2011 Share #11 Posted July 15, 2011 Download and reformat the card in camera. Occasionally reformat in the computer and repeat reformat in camera. Advice from Lexar to me. Never erase images. That eventually leaves the card directory full but actual storage locations ready to be written over. With no space in the directory, it can not assign storage places and probably will read full. Computers seldom give correct error messages and they may as well say error and leave you to guess. Sorry the way it is. You also get fragmented files just like a computer which only asks for corruption when you delete and rewrite. The M9 has only one card space, so you need to treat the card well. Li batteries like to be kept full. Recharge as often as possible and you will actually get more life from them, unlike NiCads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venkman Posted July 15, 2011 Share #12 Posted July 15, 2011 You also get fragmented files just like a computer which only asks for corruption when you delete and rewrite. Hi, virtually all the data in cards/flash drives/SSDs is fragmented, but that causes no effect, because there are no moving parts that need to be put into position in order to read or write. Every storage position can be read at the same speed as it's neighbour, like 8 Billion single little boxes. That's the advantage of controller based mediums - if one of the boxes crashes, it will simply not be used anymore, but will not compromise the integrity of the whole medium, like it is unfortunately with disc drives. Dirk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pklein Posted July 15, 2011 Share #13 Posted July 15, 2011 It does seem like most of the reports of M9 card failures happen to cards of 8 GB and over, or to people who don't reformat their cards when clearing them. Or use brands other than Sandisk or Lexar. FWIW, I have four Sandisk 2 GB cards, and two Sandisk Extreme III 4 GB (Class 10) cards. No issues so far. I never write to the card with my computer, except for firmware updates. I fill them up, set them aside and use the other cards. Each time I replace a card in the camera, I format the "new" one. The only time I delete an image is if the one I've just taken is bad. I believe this keeps the card's directory written to in succession, with no unused "spaces" that might confuse the camera if its writing routine isn't exactly perfect. I have an M8, but I suspect that what I do is just good practice for any memory card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted July 16, 2011 Share #14 Posted July 16, 2011 So first, this was a properly formatted SD card. I've never used this card to, for example, put new firmware on the camera. And I had just the day before pruned about 100 photos off it, so that the count showed I had over 500 pictures left on it. JB John, Would you mind defining "pruned about 100 photos..." Did you delete the photos in computer or in the camera? I think it's best to move all the images on to your hard drive, delete the unwanted images in your software of choice and then reformat the card in camera, starting fresh. Rather than deleting specific images and leaving a bunch of images on the card, which it sounds like you did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted July 16, 2011 Share #15 Posted July 16, 2011 Still, I would suggest that a camera that needs an occasional battery out reset is NOT functioning without a glitch. A well-running M9 is not supposed to do that. Is this true? because my m9 has been pretty much fine but I have had to remove the battery perhaps 5 times in 18 months. I have also had a card full error- and the camera write bad files on a few occasions- but this has only occurred when the battery was very low and about to die. Should I be concerned? Love the OP's photo by the way- fanstastiche! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted July 16, 2011 Share #16 Posted July 16, 2011 John,Would you mind defining "pruned about 100 photos..." Did you delete the photos in computer or in the camera? I think it's best to move all the images on to your hard drive, delete the unwanted images in your software of choice and then reformat the card in camera, starting fresh. Rather than deleting specific images and leaving a bunch of images on the card, which it sounds like you did. Also is this true? Do we need to not delete photos in camera? I do this often- but I have read several people here saying not to do it. Is this a general rule for digital cameras- or just the M9? And if so why? As I recall here is no warning about such behaviour in the instruction manual... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 16, 2011 Share #17 Posted July 16, 2011 Is this true? because my m9 has been pretty much fine but I have had to remove the battery perhaps 5 times in 18 months. I have also had a card full error- and the camera write bad files on a few occasions- but this has only occurred when the battery was very low and about to die. Should I be concerned? Love the OP's photo by the way- fanstastiche! Yes, I am concerned. Leica needs to fix this before my warranty runs out. Otherwise, I will send my M9 in for repairs right before that time. K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 16, 2011 Share #18 Posted July 16, 2011 Also is this true? Do we need to not delete photos in camera? I do this often- but I have read several people here saying not to do it. Is this a general rule for digital cameras- or just the M9? And if so why? As I recall here is no warning about such behaviour in the instruction manual... My point exactly. If something isn't ruled out in the user manual then it is a legitimate user action. Of course, because of the M9 firmware bugs one is forced to use workarounds in order to be able to continue to take photos. Best, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 16, 2011 Share #19 Posted July 16, 2011 Thank you all. This is very helpful. So first, this was a properly formatted SD card. I've never used this card to, for example, put new firmware on the camera. And I had just the day before pruned about 100 photos off it, so that the count showed I had over 500 pictures left on it. As William has said, this could be your problem if you did it on a PC? It is OK to delete images in the camera while you are using it, but not on a PC then put the card back in the camera. Despite any contrary techy explanations of why it shouldn't be so, the rule that gives you a datum point for a healthy card is - make your pictures, download all onto your PC, put card back in camera and reformat it to delete all pictures, every time. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewittehd Posted July 16, 2011 Share #20 Posted July 16, 2011 I can't believe this formatting. Does anybody reformat the harddisk after deinstalling programs or deleting files? Why would a card be different? I shoot digital since around 1994, starting with a 360 kB Kodak and progressing to models since.I have never formatted a card. I have also never lost an image. For me the "you have to delete in the PC and format in camera" belongs to urban legends. The fault here is most probably the camera. Kind regards, Jean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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