k-hawinkler Posted January 24, 2011 Share #1 Posted January 24, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am interested in an Elmar 90/4 and if possible would like to use it directly on an M9 or via the 16467/OUAGO adapter to a Visoflex III. Here are my questions: How many different types of Elmar 90/4 are there? Production years? Which ones can be used on both the M9 directly or with detachable lens head via 16467/OUAGO? Which ones work only directly on an M9? Are there Elmar 90/4 model(s) that were intended only for the Visoflex and never had an M-mount part? I am already somewhat familiar with 90 mm Summicrons f2 and Elmarits f2.8. So, my questions above are only directed at 90 Elmars. Best, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Hi k-hawinkler, Take a look here Elmar 90/4 for M9 or 16467/OUAGO. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted January 24, 2011 Share #2 Posted January 24, 2011 No experience with the M9 sorry. AFAIK : Elmar 90/4 rigid, M mount, # 11830 (ELGAM) (1954-1963) Elmar 90/4 rigid, screwmount, # 11730 (ELANG) (1954-1963?) Elmar 90/4 head for Visoflex and OUAGO mount, # 11128 (ERKOM) (1954-1963?) Elmar 90/4 collapsible, M mount, # 11131 (ELNOO) (1954-1968) Elmar 90/4 rigid, M mount, # 11830 (1964-1968) Elmar-C 90/4 rigid, M mount for Leica CL, # 11540 (1973-1978) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 24, 2011 Share #3 Posted January 24, 2011 Ah, the Elmar 90...... one of my passions (have 7 of them... the variants, if one counts all the screwmount versions, are a lot...) : but the above list from lct is sufficient for your purpose... let's concentrate on the version with M mount : 1) The ones which CANNOT have the lens unit unscrewed for Visoflex usage are the collapsible (ILNOO - 11831) and the Elmar-C (the only black one in M mount), made in 1975 for the Leica CL. 2) In the others, there are TWO lens' designs : the classical 4 elements Elmar design (ELGAM - 11130) and the last 3 Elments design (11830) . both with lensehead removable that fits to Viso via OUAGO and, for shorter distances, adding the OTQNO ring. 3) The 3 elements is an EXCELLENT lens, even to today standards: for me, is a lens to have: compact, sharp, "right" contrast. fine OOF, perfect for macro on bellows (I use it regularly on my M8); not rare (rare in screw mount), prices higher than the 11831, but worths the premium price. As lct wrote, there was a model made for Viso only (ERKOM) but is not, in itself, a different version: it was simply the lenshead of ELGAM sold separately. Here's a picture of my beloved "3 elements" with OUAGO+OTQNO : Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! and a quick repro shot made with it (about 1:2 ratio) which shows its excellent rendition (lens wide open): Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! and a quick repro shot made with it (about 1:2 ratio) which shows its excellent rendition (lens wide open): ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/142434-elmar-904-for-m9-or-16467ouago/?do=findComment&comment=1568085'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 24, 2011 Share #4 Posted January 24, 2011 You should be able to use all types of 4/90 Elmars with screw-mount (and adpater) or with M-mount on the M9. You cannot collapse the collapsible type! The rigid types all had detachable lens heads to be used on the Visoflex. As listed by Ict you could buy the lens heads separately (ERKOM/11128). (Edit: as luigi said, the C-mount version had no detachable lens head). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 24, 2011 Share #5 Posted January 24, 2011 ...You cannot collapse the collapsible type!... Are you sure? I can do it on the R-D1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted January 24, 2011 Share #6 Posted January 24, 2011 It's the only collapsible (besides the current Makro-Elmar) I didn't try and measure, so I am not sure - though everybody says, it can't be collpsed on a digital M. If it collapses more than 22 mm I'd call it unsafe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 24, 2011 Share #7 Posted January 24, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I did collapsed it onto M8 - but didn't feel fine... - better to avoid himo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 24, 2011 Share #8 Posted January 24, 2011 It's the only collapsible (besides the current Makro-Elmar) I didn't try and measure, so I am not sure - though everybody says, it can't be collpsed on a digital M. If it collapses more than 22 mm I'd call it unsafe. Roughly 13 or 14mm. The tube is long but the mount is thick as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 24, 2011 Share #9 Posted January 24, 2011 ...Elmar 90/4 collapsible, M mount, # 11131 (ELNOO) (1954-1968)... It's 11631, not 11131, sorry for the typo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickp13 Posted January 25, 2011 Share #10 Posted January 25, 2011 how about an earlier elmar 90/4 in screw mount + adapter for your m9? this one is sn 565951, supposedly from 1941, and uncoated. the focus is spot on, respectably sharp, with good color, and aperture and focusing ring both turn smoothly after their CLA late last year. the head detaches for use with a visoflex. it should be the ELANG, but i don't have the numerical code 11xxx. maybe uli, luigi or lct can help me? good luck with your quest. rick Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/142434-elmar-904-for-m9-or-16467ouago/?do=findComment&comment=1568234'>More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share #11 Posted January 25, 2011 Thanks lct, luigi bertolotti, UliWer, rickp13. Based on your feedback, I just ordered a Leica M 4/90mm Elmar Tri-Element made in 1965 in near mint condition. luigi and rick, your images are very convincing. If I understood correctly and the lens is as advertised, I should be able to enjoy an EXCELLENT Elmar 90/4 either directly in M mount or via Visoflex and OUAGO/OTQNO on the M9 as well as via adapter on my Nikons. Apparently, I am following some of Luigi's passions, having already acquired this combination http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-collectors-historica/56686-near-focusing-device.html#post588106 in the past. Again, many thanks for your advice. Best, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 25, 2011 Share #12 Posted January 25, 2011 ...it should be the ELANG, but i don't have the numerical code 11xxx. maybe uli, luigi or lct can help me?... Yes looks like an ELANG see http://tinyurl.com/c3dbc7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted January 25, 2011 Share #13 Posted January 25, 2011 No experience with the M9 sorry.AFAIK : Elmar 90/4 rigid, M mount, # 11830 (ELGAM) (1954-1963) Elmar 90/4 rigid, screwmount, # 11730 (ELANG) (1954-1963?) Elmar 90/4 head for Visoflex and OUAGO mount, # 11128 (ERKOM) (1954-1963?) Elmar 90/4 collapsible, M mount, # 11131 (ELNOO) (1954-1968) Elmar 90/4 rigid, M mount, # 11830 (1964-1968) Elmar-C 90/4 rigid, M mount for Leica CL, # 11540 (1973-1978) There are problems with earlier ones on Visoflex II & III, as I discovered, mine is ser. no 719489, but does not focus to infinity on Viso II with 16467. In the 1961 catalogue there is an asterisk against the focus range of this mount and head, and the footnote says :- "Lenses above 1 572 401 can be used readily with 16467 N Lenses from 697 901 to 1 572 400 require adjustment at the works Lenses under 697 901 can be used with 16467 N but not up to infinity." I wonder if I can send mine back to Solms for free adjustment Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 25, 2011 Share #14 Posted January 25, 2011 I have a Leica tariff from 1961 but no catalogue. Would you know if it is available on the web? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyoung Posted January 25, 2011 Share #15 Posted January 25, 2011 I have a Leica tariff from 1961 but no catalogue. Would you know if it is available on the web? The one I have is a Hove Camera Co facsimile, a quick google produced Leica Literature who seems to have everything but! Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 25, 2011 Share #16 Posted January 25, 2011 Much interesting thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share #17 Posted February 9, 2011 Ah, the Elmar 90...... one of my passions (have 7 of them... the variants, if one counts all the screwmount versions, are a lot...) : but the above list from lct is sufficient for your purpose... let's concentrate on the version with M mount :1) The ones which CANNOT have the lens unit unscrewed for Visoflex usage are the collapsible (ILNOO - 11831) and the Elmar-C (the only black one in M mount), made in 1975 for the Leica CL. 2) In the others, there are TWO lens' designs : the classical 4 elements Elmar design (ELGAM - 11130) and the last 3 Elments design (11830) . both with lensehead removable that fits to Viso via OUAGO and, for shorter distances, adding the OTQNO ring. 3) The 3 elements is an EXCELLENT lens, even to today standards: for me, is a lens to have: compact, sharp, "right" contrast. fine OOF, perfect for macro on bellows (I use it regularly on my M8); not rare (rare in screw mount), prices higher than the 11831, but worths the premium price. As lct wrote, there was a model made for Viso only (ERKOM) but is not, in itself, a different version: it was simply the lenshead of ELGAM sold separately. Here's a picture of my beloved "3 elements" with OUAGO+OTQNO : [ATTACH]241196[/ATTACH] and a quick repro shot made with it (about 1:2 ratio) which shows its excellent rendition (lens wide open): [ATTACH]241199[/ATTACH] Hi Luigi, Thanks. Now that I have in my hands a lens advertised as Leica M 4/90mm Elmar Tri-Element with Ser.-No.2124xxx, how do I verify that it is in fact a Tri-Element. In Erwin Puts' pocket book http://www.imx.nl/photo/downloads/files/page70-leicapocket_pod1.pdf I find: 1965 2123651 2000 2125650 Elmar 40 90. In 3 element 90 Elmar are the following statements: Actually, most 90mm Elmars were 3-element designs. If you're thinking of M-mount (BM) Elmars only, then the 11830 in 2 different designs, were 3 element designs. The Leica Collectors Guide lists... 1) Fat Elmar ELANG(SM), 1931-1932, 3 element with the 2 rear elments cemented. 2) Thin Elmar ELANG(SM), 1933-1951, 3 element but with slimmer mount. 3) New-Style Mount 11730(SM) & 11830(BM), 1951-1963, still 3 element. 4) Rigid 11130(BM), 1954-1963, 4 element introduced with M3. Collapsible 11131, 1954-1968, 4 element BM design. 5) New Optical Glass Design still 11830(BM), 1964-1968, 3 element design. I don't know how all these versions compared with each other. However, rotating front elements don't generally affect optical quality. They're just a nuisance when it comes to square shades and polarizing filters. -- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), July 08, 2001. As my lens is not a Collapsible one, case 5) seems to apply. This is also consistent with Elmar 90/4 rigid, M mount, # 11830 (1964-1968) from post #2 in this thread by lct http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1588577-post2.html. Also, my lens isn't one of the problem lenses listed by gyoung in post #13 of this thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1589450-post13.html. I always tend to forget to manually set in the M9 the lens information. So it would be good to give it a lens code. The only meaningful lens code I come up with is 100111 from the Macro-Elmar-M 90mm f/4. Best, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share #18 Posted February 9, 2011 Very interesting and exhaustive discussion of the 3-element Elmar 4/90 (and others) in German http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-sammler-historica/158902-dreilinsiges-elmar-4-90-a.html. Lots of images and measurements. K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted February 9, 2011 Share #19 Posted February 9, 2011 I do not know all the numbers, But to use the 90 4.0 focus mount AT INFINITY, you need the permanent bayonet mount version of the 90 4.0 with 39 mm filter threads. The much more common screw mount version will only focus from around 15 feet to close range. No experience with 3 element Elmar. Collapsible 90 4.0 head will not remove. Heads will not remove from Elmar C used for the small M CL camera. I have numerous screw mt Leica 90`s and none will go past 15/20 feet. If I stand them together you can see there is a difference in height of the focus mount and the optical units are different. Other than the infinity problem, screw mount lens heads will be fine. There is no difference in optical quality. Lastly be sure the last four digits of the serial match the 4 digits engraved on the black ring inside the focus mount. If no match, then the two pieces do not belong together and may not focus properly. Same for any lens with detatchable head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted February 10, 2011 I do not know all the numbers, But to use the 90 4.0 focus mount AT INFINITY, you need the permanent bayonet mount version of the 90 4.0 with 39 mm filter threads. The much more common screw mount version will only focus from around 15 feet to close range. No experience with 3 element Elmar. Collapsible 90 4.0 head will not remove. Heads will not remove from Elmar C used for the small M CL camera. I have numerous screw mt Leica 90`s and none will go past 15/20 feet. If I stand them together you can see there is a difference in height of the focus mount and the optical units are different. Other than the infinity problem, screw mount lens heads will be fine. There is no difference in optical quality. Lastly be sure the last four digits of the serial match the 4 digits engraved on the black ring inside the focus mount. If no match, then the two pieces do not belong together and may not focus properly. Same for any lens with detatchable head. Hi Tobey, Many thanks. Without you pointing this out, I would have never checked these things. When I take off the lens head, I see two engravings on the black part of the lens head itself. They look like being scratched in by hand. On one side is : 90 On the other is: 118 27 H Inside the black ring of the focus mount are two engravings, again scratched in: On one side: the last 3 digits of the serial number. On the other: TII I have tried out this lens with the Visoflex III and directly on my M9. Indeed, it has no problem focusing to ∞ in either case. The following image was taken with M9 + 3-element Elmar 90/4 @ f=5.6, 1/1000 s: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Focus was on the top part of the central telephone pole. Following is a 100% crop: Distance to the mountain tops - as the crow flies - about 10 miles. A moiré pattern is visible in the power lines, also in the .DNG file. In May 2000 the Cerro Grande Fire Cerro Grande Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia swept through these mountains, the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and the town site. Over 400 families in town lost their houses and all in all 48,000 acres (190 km²) of forest were burned. Total damages were one billion US Dollars. I think this will be a fun lens once it's had a CLA. Thanks again. Best, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Focus was on the top part of the central telephone pole. Following is a 100% crop: Distance to the mountain tops - as the crow flies - about 10 miles. A moiré pattern is visible in the power lines, also in the .DNG file. In May 2000 the Cerro Grande Fire Cerro Grande Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia swept through these mountains, the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and the town site. Over 400 families in town lost their houses and all in all 48,000 acres (190 km²) of forest were burned. Total damages were one billion US Dollars. I think this will be a fun lens once it's had a CLA. Thanks again. Best, K-H. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/142434-elmar-904-for-m9-or-16467ouago/?do=findComment&comment=1583411'>More sharing options...
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