X1 discussion thread (merged)

[fuchs]

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It appears that the X1 is a fixed lens camera - which I am not convinced is the best idea - although it may be the easiest way to go. Does anyone know for sure of the sensor size?

 

It would seem the camera could be a bit more of a 'hit' if had interchangeable lenses - especially if its in the mid to high $1500 range. If it's an APS sensor then having lens choices would make it a descent system camera for those trying Leica for the first time.

 

Not sure how well it will sell - but I hope it does.

 

For a crop-sensor Leica camera that takes M lenses, and LTM lenses via adapter, there's the M8...

I for one have used for almost 10 years an M6 with a 35 Summilux welded to the mount. I have lenses in nearly every FL that fit the M, but the 35mm (or its equivalent since the M8) is the one that stays longer on the camera.

 

And then, there's always the chance that Leica issues in the future different FL versions of this camera, like Sigma did with the DP-1 ad DP-2, maybe a wider one and one with a "normal" (ie. 50mm equivalent). This can lead to expanded sales also...

[nugat]

X1 has a fixed lens comparing to EP1 and GF1 interchangable ones.

And they cost half for the same image quality with kit lens. Now think about putting this little m43 Leica on them (800$):

LUMIX G Micro System Lens | PRODUCTS | LUMIX | Digital Camera | Panasonic Global

Or any other Leica glass for that matter.

The gods of Solms decided not to repeat the mistake of CL which was full frame and took M glass. Almost killed the big brother too....

 

PS. mods--cannot we move this thread to "digital" and merge with the x1 one?

[Guest]

It has to sell.

So quality (not a problem), shutter lag (to win against the Sigmas) and design are half of the the factors.

Price (Sigma's which does NOT sell, because it is great optically but slow) being the other half.

Despite all our enthusiasm it'll be a uphill battle, because neither zoom nor at least interchangeable lenses, that makes it hard to reach volume.

The few M fans, who also buy a compact (after selling good lenses right now to finance a M9 ) will not cover production costs.

It's a great camera, but nobody will spend a four digit price for it, when the talk is over. And carry an extra charger and different batteries.

 

Keep it as it is, give it digiM batteries, sell it for less than a thousand including tax and pray.

 

Then I'll join in the prayers and what's more important, I'd buy one.

[earleygallery]

The X1 lens is likely to be better quality, the sensor is bigger than 4/3rds (assuming effective 35mm FOV) so it's not really comparable to the EP1. We need to await the full details and test images etc, but it certainly offers something different.

[nhabedi]

I'd like to add a few more comments about why I think it was a good choice of Leica to make this a fixed-lens model:

 

• As others have mentioned, with interchangeable lenses they'd cannibalize the M segment. Why should they do that?
   
  
• I'm impressed that this small company managed to design a third camera (X1) seemingly from scratch while working on the S2 and the M9 at the same time. Does anybody think they'd have the resources to develop a third lines of lenses (in addition to the S and M lenses) as well even if they wanted to?
   
  
• And if they didn't want to design their own lens line, they'd have to go the microFourThirds route which'd mean that everybody would compare their offerings to those of Olympus and Panasonic. The same people who now already complain about the X1 without having seen it would then cry out loud that the X1 is much more expensive than the GF-1 or the EP-1 or whatever.
   
  
• With a fixed lens I guess the lens can be optimized for the camera and both can be kept smaller. Plus, it's probably cheaper to build them.
   
  
• Not to forget that you won't ever have to clean the sensor...
   
  
• And here's a final thought: If the X1 is successful, why shouldn't Leica release variations with different (fixed) lenses, say 24 or 50 (35mm equivalent)? Many M photographers routinely carry around two bodies with different lenses mounted so that they don't have to switch lenses when in a hurry. If the rumors are true and the X1 will be around 1500 Euro, then you could have two X1 bodies with two lenses for the price of one Summilux. How about that?
  

[fuchs]

It has to sell.

So quality (not a problem), shutter lag (to win against the Sigmas) and design are half of the the factors.

Price (Sigma's which does NOT sell, because it is great optically but slow) being the other half.

Despite all our enthusiasm it'll be a uphill battle, because neither zoom nor at least interchangeable lenses, that makes it hard to reach volume.

The few M fans, who also buy a compact (after selling good lenses right now to finance a M9 ) will not cover production costs.

It's a great camera, but nobody will spend a four digit price for it, when the talk is over.

You have a point here. I think Leica did not want the X1 to be competition for the M line, so no interchangeable lenses. But a 35mm (or eq.FL) lens is actually a very useful, and maybe the most used FL of all Leica M lenses.

 

And carry an extra charger and different batteries.

 

Keep it as it is, give it digiM batteries, sell it for less than a thousand including tax and pray.

 

snip.

 

Let's pray it uses the same batteries as M8/M9, THAT would be a smart move.

[nugat]

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The X1 lens is likely to be better quality, the sensor is bigger than 4/3rds (assuming effective 35mm FOV) so it's not really comparable to the EP1. We need to await the full details and test images etc, but it certainly offers something different.

 

Firstly m43 exist and take pictures. With Zuiko and Leica glass very good pictures.

Summilux D 25/1.4 or the new Elmarit 45mm/2.8 are likely to be better than the little pancake on X1. X1 is just a retro sigma DP, but with fixed lens cannot become the backup body to M. But indeed, we need to wait for test results. Maybe in 2010.

[kenf]

My dream: a dedicated hot shoe mounted OVF with LCD overlay focus bracket and in-focus indication.

[earleygallery]

Well that's a Leica branded lens made by Panasonic. Nothing wrong with that but if the X1 prime is a genuine Leica made lens then we can expect the best quality. Its an interesting camera on paper.....shame about the apparent lack of a finder though.

 

Yes the Oly and Pana's are on sale now - go for them if they do what you want, no point in waiting for a yet to be released camera if you don't like the idea of the fixed lens etc.

[jaapv]

I find myself getting increasingly fascinated with the X1. As I posted in another thread, if it makes up for the shortcomings of the DP1/2, this might be the perfect carry-everywhere-shoot-everything camera! If the images turn out to be gloriously like what the M8 churns out, I might just sell my entire M kit, lenses and all, and get the X1 and the remaining money on a beach house!

I rather doubt that the images will be similar to the M8, as this is an APS Cmos sensor, quite a different beast. I am convinced they will be of exceedingly high quality, however.

[J Mitchum]

Firstly m43 exist and take pictures. With Zuiko and Leica glass very good pictures.

Summilux D 25/1.4 or the new Elmarit 45mm/2.8 are likely to be better than the little pancake on X1. X1 is just a retro sigma DP, but with fixed lens cannot become the backup body to M. But indeed, we need to wait for test results. Maybe in 2010.

 

The Summilux D 25/f1.4 is very nice (and I have an extra for sale if anyone wants one) but it's made by Panasonic with some input from Leica.

 

More importantly, we don't know that the lens on the X1 is a pancake. It could extend out when the camera is powered on. Regardless it is a true Leica lens.

[thrid]

IMO what will make or break the X1 and determine if it is merely a DLUX-5 with a larger sensor and fixed lens is the speed of the EVF.

 

- If it suffers from the same level of display lag (not shutter lag) as every other EVF camera on the market it will be useless for photography in which split second timing is absolutely critical. To avoid this Leica would for one thing have to increase the FPS of the display dramatically compared to what we've seen so far in the market. We'll have to see.

 

- Shooting street photography with your arms stretched out in front of you is sort of ridiculous and awkward.

 

You could use it with an optical viewfinder, but...

 

- You obviously can't use the AF, with the brightline finder. It will be like bouncing back and forth between the separate RF and viewfinder windows on an old LTM camera,

 

- In that case Leica will have to have implemented very good and elegant scale focusing controls.

Then you could use it like a LTM camera and it would be quite successful for certain types of work.

But because focusing and framing would be separate you're never going to be able to have your cake and eat it.

 

If the price is right it may be worth while to put up with those limitations, but if we are talking about $2000, you're probably better off with the GF1, which from an operating principle is almost identical and may cost half as much.

 

I'm hoping for another version of the X1 with a built in optical viewfinder. Maybe they can salvage the RF unit from the CL.

[nugat]

The Summilux D 25/f1.4 is very nice (and I have an extra for sale if anyone wants one) but it's made by Panasonic with some input from Leica.

 

More importantly, we don't know that the lens on the X1 is a pancake. It could extend out when the camera is powered on. Regardless it is a true Leica lens.

 

I shoot M8, GH1, EP1 with all kinds of glass and assure you that the 25/1.4 is a true Leica glass to Leica specs manufactured in Japan by Panasonic. I have been able to verify that put on GH1 it holds in any situation with M8+35/1.4 lux. Ability to autofocus and auto mode is a nice bonus. The price ratio is 10:1 for the two combos. Please PM me with your price for the 25/1.4, I very much would like another.

[treeplanter]

It appears that the X1 is a fixed lens camera - which I am not convinced is the best idea - although it may be the easiest way to go. Does anyone know for sure of the sensor size?

 

It would seem the camera could be a bit more of a 'hit' if had interchangeable lenses - especially if its in the mid to high $1500 range. If it's an APS sensor then having lens choices would make it a descent system camera for those trying Leica for the first time.

 

Not sure how well it will sell - but I hope it does.

 

Back in film days, Konica sold the Hexar, which came with a fixed-lens 35mm F2.0 lens. About the same time, Nikon offered the 35ti, a fixed-lens camera with a 35/2.8 Nikkor. The X1 seems to be a modern interpretation of this idea.

 

Jim B.

[nugat]

Wow, you know that already? Good for you.

 

FWIW, if the X1 has (as it seems to be the case) real controls for aperture and shutter speed it will be a camera which is totally different from the EP-1 or GF-1 with their typical button/dial-based user interfaces that virtually every digicam nowadays has. That alone puts it in a different league and will attract different buyers.

 

This camera could be a new classic and I think it's a very smart move of Leica to not build another me-too model. I hope they'll succeed with this.

 

Educated guess of course. If they source the best APS CMOS (Nikon, Canon?), GH1 with summiluxD 25/1.4 can equal the best APS cam plus best prime glass. Actually it can equal M8+lux35/1.4 which I have proven to myself to my own surprise.

If X1 can put the G1 quality EVF on--fine. Somehow I doubt it.

[Overgaard]

The more I get used to the idea, the more I want it.

 

But moreover, it's the perfect intro camera. It has the Leica qualities, seem to have the M size and shape.

 

So once you get used to this, you might want something more and some other lenses. So the next natural step will be the M9. Same everything, more possibilities.

[fuchs]

You could use it with an optical viewfinder, but...

 

- You obviously can't use the AF, with the brightline finder. It will be like bouncing back and forth between the separate RF and viewfinder windows on an old LTM camera,

 

- In that case Leica will have to have implemented very good and elegant scale focusing controls.

Then you could use it like a LTM camera and it would be quite successful for certain types of work.

But because focusing and framing would be separate you're never going to be able to have your cake and eat it.

 

I cannot understand why do you say an optical viewfinder would preclude the use of AF. The Konica Hexar AF, Nikon 35Ti, Ricoh GR-1, Leica Minilux, Contax T2 and T3, and nearly every other point and shoot AF 35mm camera used OVFs with separated RF windows.

All of them had just a pair of small brackets in the middle of the VF field to mark where the camera was focusing. I used for years a Hexar AF and a Nikon 35Ti (I still have this one) and never mis focused a shot. Yes, they had slow AF systems, but they were 1980's technology.

If you have a properly designed detachable OVF, with properly aligned AF brackets, which should be very simple for Leica to build, you can use the AF. With the rear LCD shut off, it wouldn't be different than any other of the above mentioned cameras.

And if they implement some sort of Snap pre-focusing mode as seen on the Ricoh GR-D and GX series of cameras, you'd have already a capable street shooting tool.

 

If you mean instead using the OVF with MANUAL FOCUS, then I'm half way with you. But obviously, if you focus onthe rear LCD you'll not need the OVF...

[Overgaard]

Something like the Viogtland mini finder (28-35mm) would be very clever and would fit right into the design.

 

[nugat]

You still need feedback from the autofocus when it's on. Sound? Uncertain and annoying in some situations.

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[kenf]

Too bad the MiniFinder was discontinued - maybe this will cause it to go back into production? That said, I'll be very surprised if Leica doesn't offer some dedicated finder.