More rumors: Apparently, M9 is not the only camera to be announced on 09/09?

[Guest BigSplash]

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My dear Frank,

 

The very amount of "detail" should have warned the serious Leicaphiles on here that this was indeed a send-up of all the 090-9-09 hot air that's been wafting about ... to say nothing of the reference to April 1 in the post.

 

Come on ! What credibility can this fantasy have with anyone who's acquainted with Leica? Can anyone really imagine Leica - or anyone else - rebuilding their lenses for 50 Euro? Or accept the idea of licensing agreements with Japanese makers on lens mounts that have been out of patent for years? And differential royalties for one of them? This was meant as a deflator to counteract some of the might-really-be-rooted-in-reality notions that have been circulating, and I am quite astonished that anyone took it seriously.

 

Humour, like beauty, is very much in the eye of the beholder and not everyone will laugh - or even smile wanly - at the same thing. As the saying goes, "You can't please all the people all of the time". But as for degrading the quality of the forum ... well, words fail me. Even serious people (myself included) need to laugh at themselves sometimes.

 

Now - about the Electro-Visoflex ...

 

You are of course correct and I am stupid to take Forum members posting this stuff seriously. It is my fault and I shall try to be more skeptical about Forum members inputs in future and learn from being completely spoofed. The joke is certainly on me for being taken in.

 

The electro Visoflex ( or EVF Box) is something I believe in for Leica as a system camera so please let's not associate this item with the joke.

 

 

Frankly I like Mark Norton type inputs as being valuable and giving us clarity after taking apart his M8 rather than the jokers and NINO (No Input No Output ) types we endure so often.

[luigi bertolotti]

I'll try to cause too much consternation then, And I promise not to cross the Rubicon. (So those in the south are safe.)

 

I should arriving in Italy on Monday afternoon, and I'll be based around Genova (Ranging between Monaco and Pisa) until Thursday, when I'll be driving up to Maranello and then back up through Austria and Germany on Friday. Hopefully the weather will be nice, and I'll be able to use my M8 at last! It arrived back from Solms again today, so I'm hoping that it's third time lucky for the sensor.

 

Uhm.... Maranello.... you decided to invest in something more solid than a M9, I see... ; best whishes to your Italian trip, anyway !!!

[sdai]

You are of course correct and I am stupid to take Forum members posting this stuff seriously. It is my fault and I shall try to be more skeptical about Forum members inputs in future and learn from being completely spoofed. The joke is certainly on me for being taken in.

 

FWIW, the reason why some people (me included) took "scsambrook"'s joke seriously was because, it actually makes sense!

[UliWer]

Uhm.... Maranello.... you decided to invest in something more solid than a M9, I see... ; best whishes to your Italian trip, anyway !!!

????

Seems you don't trust the solidity of a M9....

 

If you would drop your M3 or a rigid Summicron on a red car body from Maranello, would you really exspect the car owner saying: "Oh doesn't matter, it is so solid, it won't do any harm when you go on doing this..."????

[luigi bertolotti]

????

Seems you don't trust the solidity of a M9....

 

If you would drop your M3 or a rigid Summicron on a red car body from Maranello, would you really exspect the car owner saying: "Oh doesn't matter, it is so solid, it won't do any harm when you go on doing this..."????

 

I referred to the long-term solidity of the investiment... those red cars are still very slightly digital...

[Guest BigSplash]

FWIW, the reason why some people (me included) took "scsambrook"'s joke seriously was because, it actually makes sense!

 

I agree that Leica should consider making lenses for other brands (as Zeiss, and Voigtlander seems to do very successfully). I like you also believed that his is what they were looking at, as clearly their knowhow is in lenses and less in camera design and none in semiconductor or sensors.

 

The issue for me was and is how Leica positions itself in the market, It would be difficult to renounce the "R" lenses and then effectively reintroduce a similar item a few months down the road.

 

As we move towards 09/09/09 it will be interesting to see what Leica positioning is as a company going forward.

> New Entrant to a high end DSLR niche (S2) that directly attacks Phase One and Hasselblad in a yet to be defined ">£30K per kit" super pro DSLR niche

> Rangefinder King (M Series) ...already has 95% market share. Will enjoy a surge for one year (maybe two) with a FF M9 but then what? How to build sustainable profitable growth with what is a cash cow today?

> Pradovit ....high end projector with a lower spec. than competitors at half price but Leica optics against Zeiss.

Compacts: difficult to achieve differentiation or high profit by badge engineering I guess

 

OTHER opportunities? ...I guess these are the options:

> Extend the scope of the "M" series via a EVF module or whatever to address Macro and Telephoto ....this makes a rangefinder usable as a system camera

> Introduce a "M" with autofocus as well as rangefinder.....unclear to me if this is needed by forum members but the general public may appreciate this. It would potentially provide an avenue towards zoom lenses (with EVF module) and that would be appreciated by many I guess.

> Other?

[andybarton]

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I agree that Leica should consider making lenses for other brands (as Zeiss, and Voigtlander seems to do very successfully).

 

Both of those are Japanese companies and therefore do not have the patent problems that non-Japanese companies do. I thought that this had been mentionned earlier in this thread.

 

Unless you are proposing that Leica make lenses for non-Japanese brands. Which would you have in mind?

 

... clearly their knowhow is in lenses and less in camera design ....

 

Yes. I'd also noticed that Leica don't know how to design cameras, and haven't done since at least 1925...

 

The issue for me was and is how Leica positions itself in the market

 

Why is this an issue for you?

[Guest BigSplash]

 

Yes. I'd also noticed that Leica don't know how to design cameras, and haven't done since at least 1925...

 

Did the 1925 cameras or even those of 1990's have any resemblance to those of today ...my gosh it took another few decades of innovation to even generate the Visoflex and you have told me even that is old hat these days.

 

The reality is that today's camera designer has to wrestle with:

 

> Sensors and sourcing these (or developing in house which only the big guys can do)

> Graphic chip set ...again you need to work closely with external suppliers if you do not have significant volumes and at 10KU per year I guess leica does not

> Micro Code, and internal software for JPEG / RAW, camera control etc....ditto

> Shutter mechanism....ditto

> Battery ..ditto

> Monitor that is viewable in different ambient light levels

 

> At a system level most high end (>£2K price for body) cameras would support: AutoFocus, Aperture Priority, Selective exposure metering, Very high ISO numbers, Telephoto and Macro capability and probably many other features

 

> At a business level the camera should cost little to produce as it would normally be made in a volume production clean room facility with componentry highly integrated onto a single board....not two boards and a sensor board assembled and adjusted by super skilled technicians.

 

My own personal view is that the mechanical cameras and experience since 1925 has limited relevance to the high tech camera of today for the above reasons.

 

However Andy in my view:

> Leica have already carved out a niche with the M8 (low cost).

> The rumoured FF M9 gives a chance to extend this niche somewhat.

> The real opportunity however is to subsequently develop a path towards increasing the size of this niche...this has to be key for Leica.

 

I believe that they have a very good chance to grow as a business as I (and many others) have said many times. I hope we see on 09/09/09 how they plan to do this.

[Guest BigSplash]

Why is this an issue for you?

 

For the same reason others have written pages of threads about 2008 annual results, 1st Qtr results, S2 Price announcement, and comments in almost every Leica Forum thread about the viability of Leica.

 

Andy I recognise that you have little interest in the business side of leica but some of us do. Perosnally I wish to see the company go back to being very healthy, highly profitable and NOT needing to cut back on R&D as has just happened.

[bill]

Did the 1925 cameras or even those of 1990's have any resemblance to those of today ...my gosh it took another few decades of innovation to even generate the Visoflex and you have told me even that is old hat these days.

 

...yada yada....

 

The PLOOT was introduced in 1936, in time for the Olympics, and re-introduced in 1951 as the Visoflex 1. I would have thought a Visoflex afficionado would have known that.

 

The rest of your post is unworthy of comment.

 

Bill

[bill]

Perosnally I wish to see the company go back to being very healthy, highly profitable...

 

Why do I find that so hard to believe?

 

...and NOT needing to cut back on R&D as has just happened.

 

They have just completed an R&D cycle and reduced investment as a result. That is not the same as your conspiracy-theorist spin that they "needed" to cut back.

 

Try sticking to the facts.

 

Bill

[SJP]

Hi Frank,

 

This is getting a bit depressing:

> Sensors and sourcing these (or developing in house which only the big guys can do)

They are already with Kodak which is the current state-of-the-art sensor manufacturer

 

> Graphic chip set ...again you need to work closely with external suppliers if you do not have significant volumes and at 10KU per year I guess leica does not

Yes, they have the maestro chip for the S2, presumably also with the next M generation

 

> Micro Code, and internal software for JPEG / RAW, camera control etc....ditto

Outsourced, this is standard practice

 

> Shutter mechanism....ditto

They use the industry standard Copal shutters

 

> Battery ..ditto

Batteries are from external suppliers and will increase in capacity keeping the same or smaller dimensions depending on design priorities.

 

> Monitor that is viewable in different ambient light levels

External suppier, use an ambient light sensor to auto-adjust the backlight. This is easy to implement, but not really essential if you have the LCD switched off - as many do.

 

> At a system level most high end (>£2K price for body) cameras would support: AutoFocus, Aperture Priority, Selective exposure metering, Very high ISO numbers, Telephoto and Macro capability and probably many other features

Leica M's are desirable exactly because they do NOT have AF. Leica might consider launching an additional CMOS live view camera with EVF/live view for macro/telephoto that takes M lenses (and R), but it should not be called a M camera. It could be useful as a (cheap)backup when your M8/9 fails & for happy snapping. If it was < 1000 euro I would buy one. There is no obvious reason why it should be very expensive and it would even allow focus confirmation, selective exposure and all the other stuff you mention that I don't particularly want. It would als be useful as a lure to catch new clients that sooner or later will buy the high-end Mx.

 

So from my point of view 5 out of 6 questions are already ticked, and the 6th one is controversial as you surely must have figured out by now.

 

I think Leica actually does know exactly what they are doing. Better than most.

[adli]

The bottom line of this discussion is that the introduction of digital cameras was a paradign shift for the camera manufacturers.

 

With some simplification we can say that the camera manufactureres had to focus on good lenses and a well functioning film holder (the camera). Other companies developed the "sensors" (film) and supplied it directly to the photographers, who could choose film themselves according the circumstanses and what they wanted their pictures to look like in terms of color reproduction.

 

With the introduction of digital cameras, the camera manufacturers suddenly became responsible for the colors their cameras reproduced in a complete new way. They suddenly now had to take the role film manufacturers had earlier. This was a new task to most of the camera manufacturers. Some did it well and other, well, they are more or less history.

[stunsworth]

OTHER opportunities? ...I guess these are the options:

> Extend the scope of the "M" series via a EVF module or whatever to address Macro and Telephoto ....this makes a rangefinder usable as a system camera

> Introduce a "M" with autofocus as well as rangefinder.....unclear to me if this is needed by forum members but the general public may appreciate this. It would potentially provide an avenue towards zoom lenses (with EVF module) and that would be appreciated by many I guess.

 

What you envisage is turning the M into an SLR, and a cludgy one at that. The reason people buy Ms is, in general, because they _aren't_ SLRs. If Leica want to get back into the SLR business, they should introduce an SLR. Leave the M for what it's good at, rather than try to make it a jack of all trades. Or to put it in other terms, you can open a bottle of wine with a Swiss army knife, but most people prefer to use a device specifically made for the task.

 

Anyhow, you've missed off the 'other opportunity' that was mentioned in the forum a day or so ago - and makes more sense to me than a bastardised M.

[Guest BigSplash]

They have just completed an R&D cycle and reduced investment as a result. That is not the same as your conspiracy-theorist spin that they "needed" to cut back.

 

Try sticking to the facts.

 

Bill

 

The fact is that they did cut back R&D investment. That is the fact.. Many people within the forum commented this negatively when the 1st Qtr results came out.

 

As for conspiracy theory ,,,,I am the guy that said (1st Qtr results thread) that they were doing an excellent job to keep the R&D at the level it is for such a small company...

 

Bill I really think you need help.....you twist reality, ignore facts and anything I write by definition you disagree with. Please try to be more open.

[dpattinson]

I appreciate that there must be lots of people who are interested in talking about what Leica's business strategy and future product line-up should be.

 

It would be great if those people started specific threads in the Customer Forum, instead of shoe-horning the discussion into threads that might once have contained something relevant to the original post.

 

Thanks.

[bill]

Perosnally I wish to see the company go back to being very healthy, highly profitable and NOT needing to cut back on R&D as has just happened.

 

Your words, Frank, exactly as written.

 

Your interpretation.

 

Your spin.

 

Your fantasy world.

 

Your problem.

 

Bill

[bill]

I appreciate that there must be lots of people who are interested in talking about what Leica's business strategy and future product line-up should be.

 

It would be great if those people started specific threads in the Customer Forum, instead of shoe-horning the discussion into threads that might once have contained something relevant to the original post.

 

Thanks.

 

Hear hear. Or in an Armchair-CEO specific sub-forum.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Mauribix]

I trust the conspiracy theory, and my girlfriend believes in the alien's existance:

 

Stargate SG-1 put us together...

 

but the M9 divide us.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[andybarton]

OK, guys, calm down...

 

The suggestion re putting "Armchair CEO" threads in the Customer Section is an excellent one, as all too often, useful threads elsewhere get hijacked.