Guest BigSplash Posted June 17, 2009 Share #81 Posted June 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Frank, in addition to improving your spelling - whch is truly dire - you need to improve your knowledge of queueing theory. A 1 day turnaround - meaning all equipment coming in is on its way back by close of next business day - would require them to run a much more costly operation - more people, more space, more spare parts - just to handle the peak traffic and on a normal day, there would be a severe under-utilisation of of resources. Sony may well turn their laptops around quickly - I have used the same service - but just try getting anything over a few years old repaired, they will not even touch it. Not surprising then that your M5 took a long time to repair, you're lucky it can be done at all. It is, after all, nearly 40 years old. You are simply wrong......If there turnaround is months or even weeks that is unacceptable as the price they charge is huge in relation to the work involved, the parts used and the minimal capital equipment involved. This should be a great money earner as an independent profit center. I am not suggesting that they hire 1000 people or 200 people but a number that allows with peaks an average turnaround of one day. I also as picked up by Bill believe that simple work such as sensor cleaning or soldering an internal flash socket lead could be done at the local dealer, with training. It is NOT inconsistent with doing all major work centrally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 17, 2009 Posted June 17, 2009 Hi Guest BigSplash, Take a look here M8 ; The Good The Bad The Ugly. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
efftee Posted June 17, 2009 Share #82 Posted June 17, 2009 Sony pickup a laptop at your door and DHL come with a purpose built padded box for this..it goes to the repair centre in Paris (for France) where it is bulk shipped to Ireland for repair....it then follows the same route back to the client's door. The process can take 4 days ...door to door and that includes repair, software reload, soak testing and check plus shipping. Could be why Sony lost $2.9B last financial year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 17, 2009 Share #83 Posted June 17, 2009 So they increase their costs with no additional revenue - they'd still get the same number of repairs coming through the door. As a CEO what would be your reaction if someone suggested that? 5 days seems reasonable to me. How long does it take to train someone to repair precision engineered items such as cameras and lenses? As Mark says, wht do these people do when there's a slack period? Can you 'not retire' people? What if they _want_ to retire? I know I'm not a CEO, but these are just a couple of the things that came to my mind. You use these people in other work during the slack periods such as R&D support, Mfg assembly support, and setting up new assembly lines for new products or quality control and defect analysis.....Also they can get involved in batch production of spare parts (eg M5) to avoid delays on future repairs) The improved cash flow as the WIP is reduced dramatically is good news and more revenue will come their way as today they lose revenue to local repair shops working at home and none in a proper factory workshop. Some delays such as M5 repair that took months was clearly due to delays in having parts and this should not happen through careful planning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 17, 2009 Share #84 Posted June 17, 2009 Could be why Sony lost $2.9B last financial year. No that was not the reason at all!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 17, 2009 Share #85 Posted June 17, 2009 Sorry, Frank, again, you have no concept what you are talking about. These are highly trained specialists that need to be trained for years if they want to do another specialty in the factory. You are comparing a low-skill worker mass producing industry with a small workshop-style specialty company. Btw, in a mass industry a one-day turnaround repair means : if you can't exchange the module in ten minutes chuck it in the bin and let aftersales handle it. I'm sure nobody would want Leica to work that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efftee Posted June 17, 2009 Share #86 Posted June 17, 2009 No that was not the reason at all!! Tongue in cheek. Lighten up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 17, 2009 Share #87 Posted June 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) You are simply wrong......If there turnaround is months or even weeks that is unacceptable as the price they charge is huge in relation to the work involved, the parts used and the minimal capital equipment involved. This should be a great money earner as an independent profit center. I am not suggesting that they hire 1000 people or 200 people but a number that allows with peaks an average turnaround of one day. I also as picked up by Bill believe that simple work such as sensor cleaning or soldering an internal flash socket lead could be done at the local dealer, with training. It is NOT inconsistent with doing all major work centrally. It is the same in Solms. I had a new Summilux 50 asph with me and I had a feeling it backfocussed ever so slightly at 0.7 m. I asked the Summiilux specialist to take a look and he was horrified: it was all of 4 micron out of spec. No way would he give me the lens back. "we'll send it by courier".... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted June 17, 2009 Share #88 Posted June 17, 2009 I have seen this at Wetzlar before they moved to Solms and I understand what you say. I was impressed by the skill and pride that these guys have with respect to their work...(snipped)...Now let's talk about the 2 -3 months it takes for such a job and the cost of such a service!!!??? I accept your point about deal directly with Solms but this is not well communicated and how do you organise that and then pay for it? (Do they accept credit cards? ) It's on their website. Contact names and email addresses for initial contact and requests, separated by department. I've done everything through email and they have always been very responsive. Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 17, 2009 Share #89 Posted June 17, 2009 .... Some delays such as M5 repair that took months was clearly due to delays in having parts and this should not happen through careful planning. Sorry... just a question: did you write correctly M 5 (five) ? I cannot consider signficant of their capability of planning repair turnaround the time needed to fix a camera that, If i remember well, went out of production 30 years ago or so... It's already a lot appreciable they still accept to service it.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spylaw4 Posted June 17, 2009 Share #90 Posted June 17, 2009 And just how many repairs do you think Customer Service are handling at any one time? This includes all the P&S models. Then think about all the spare parts required to service/repair cameras back to the 1930s. On the CS tour last Friday it was pointed out that behind "that" door was a store with around 7500 different spares for the current and more usual repairs. The other 21000 spares for the rarer items were held elsewhere. The photo below shows just one of the several holding racks for repair items. Unless it's guarantee work a repair means book job in, prepare estimate, send estimate, hold for owner ok, then schedule the actual repair with all the checks and QA. Any talk of a one day turnaround is simply phooey! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/88121-m8-the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/?do=findComment&comment=935256'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 17, 2009 Share #91 Posted June 17, 2009 You know, Brian, this looks exactly like the intake room af a large dental lab, even the trays are the same. The turnaround is normally five days per step in such establishments as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted June 17, 2009 Share #92 Posted June 17, 2009 Sorry... just a question: did you write correctly M 5 (five) ? I cannot consider signficant of their capability of planning repair turnaround the time needed to fix a camera that, If i remember well, went out of production 30 years ago or so... It's already a lot appreciable they still accept to service it.... Too right - Canon only guarantee to hold parts for their pro-range of lenses and bodies for SEVEN years. I'd like to get the mount on my aged EOS 300 2.8 L, but there simply aren't any parts out there. I prefer Leica's approach! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted June 17, 2009 Share #93 Posted June 17, 2009 Quote: Originally Posted by offshore Not trying to start a pissing contest regarding images from other cameras but I don't see where the image quality from Canons, Nikons or any other camera is any better than my M8. I showed a 13"X19" print of mine to a 4X5 user friend of mine not too long ago and, not knowing what camera I was using, ask me if he could get that quality from his 4X5. All my Canon, Nikon and Pentax user pro friends want an M8 system because of the image quality. I don't want to come across as the dyed-in-the-wool Leica starry eyed fanatic because I know the camera has flaws BUT SO DOES EVERY CAMERA and I have learned to work with the flaws to produce excellent images that win contests, get published, and sell. I shot Nikons for 33 years and Canons for 9 years and honestly wouldn't go back to either one because I spent more time fiddling with the menus (especially Nikon, god you need a freakin' PHD to operate the menus and sub-menus on them) and less time shooting. People bitch about the high ISO characteristics but we used to have uglier grain in high ISO black and white film and it was called ART. Well, I feel better now that I've gotten that off my chest so time for another glass of vino. I am very surprised by this because I have seen over the years and recently with M8 Leica optics are better than Nikon or Canon. > My daughter bought a Canon and I must say I am impressed by its quality but when you zoom in to the photo displayed on a screen you quickly get fuzzy pixels yet with the Leica M8 you can zoom in twive more using PhotoShop. > Colour tones seem to me more realistic with the Leica also, and some professionals have confirmed to me that this is their opinion also. Frank what is it your surprised at? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 17, 2009 Share #94 Posted June 17, 2009 Er, guys... Haven't you worked it out yet? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Regards, Bill ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/88121-m8-the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/?do=findComment&comment=935303'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 17, 2009 Share #95 Posted June 17, 2009 Yes- but I have an aversion of discriminating, just because somebody has a runny nose with a wart on it strange feet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted June 17, 2009 Share #96 Posted June 17, 2009 Bill didn't your mother teach you it's not polite to pick your nose and drool on the Leica Forum? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 17, 2009 Share #97 Posted June 17, 2009 Bill didn't your mother teach you it's not polite to pick your nose and drool on the Leica Forum? Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted June 17, 2009 Share #98 Posted June 17, 2009 First, an addition to the BAD list: No flash PC connection!!! For the love of heck, next time put this back in!! It's next to impossible to fire a local flash and a pocket wizard at the same time with the M8, something every other semi-pro or pro camera in the world can do. The new pocket wizard designs (with the slip in hotshoe) will make this a lot better, but I'd still rather not daisy-chain stuff on top of the shoe And a clarification on my Leica service woes. I live in NA guys--not Europe. I don't deal with Solms directly (and how would I even do that?). In fact, I don't even deal with Leica New Jersey directly. I deal with (the excellent) Kindermann Canada, who can do everything mechanical for Leicas but don't have the newest equipment for digital. So when they can't do things (like replace an M8 sensor or setup a brand new Noctilux for an M8) they send things to NJ. NJ has been, in my direct experience, not so good. They try to fix things and then send them to Solms, all of which takes a very long time. They finally got my sensor issue right, but it took literally months to do so. Last year my M8 went into Leica NJ in March for a stuck pixel / line issue. I didn't get it back till September. It didn't appear to be focussing correctly, so Kindermann adjusted the rangefinder after NJ had aligned the sensor correctly. Leica NJ had sent an old Summilux ASPH 50 and my (brand-new) Nocti into Solms as well "to be aligned for the M8"--I had sent them to make sure they knew how to get the RF set up I didn't get those lenses back from Solms till October. So I essentially went the peak wedding season without my M8. The good news is the camera--and lenses--have never been better matched. Even the Nocti is sharp wide open. Really. The 50 Lux ASPH is dynamite. But the service turnaround--from the customer's perspective, not from Solms's, was appallingly bad, verging on the ugly. They need to fix this for the S2 (and I'm sure they're already doing so... I think they were overwhelmed with the M8 at first). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 17, 2009 Share #99 Posted June 17, 2009 And a clarification on my Leica service woes. I live in NA guys--not Europe. I don't deal with Solms directly (and how would I even do that?). In fact, I don't even deal with Leica New Jersey directly. I deal with (the excellent) Kindermann Canada, who can do everything mechanical for Leicas but don't have the newest equipment for digital. So when they can't do things (like replace an M8 sensor or setup a brand new Noctilux for an M8) they send things to NJ. NJ has been, in my direct experience, not so good. They try to fix things and then send them to Solms, all of which takes a very long time. They finally got my sensor issue right, but it took literally months to do so. Last year my M8 went into Leica NJ in March for a stuck pixel / line issue. I didn't get it back till September. It didn't appear to be focussing correctly, so Kindermann adjusted the rangefinder after NJ had aligned the sensor correctly. Leica NJ had sent an old Summilux ASPH 50 and my (brand-new) Nocti into Solms as well "to be aligned for the M8"--I had sent them to make sure they knew how to get the RF set up I didn't get those lenses back from Solms till October. So I essentially went the peak wedding season without my M8. I can imagine your frustration. I'm sure Leica is aware of this -that is why they set up an express and a pro service. I think that even with the distance, e-mail> UPS >Solms would be the best bet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted June 17, 2009 Share #100 Posted June 17, 2009 ... and how do you organise that and then pay for it? (Do they accept credit cards? ) Of course they accept credit cards. At least they accepted mine a number of times. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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