lct Posted June 13, 2009 Share #1 Posted June 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Seems pretty clear that the next "R" camera will be a full frame G1 to me. Any thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 13, 2009 Posted June 13, 2009 Hi lct, Take a look here Who wants a Full Frame G1? . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted June 13, 2009 Share #2 Posted June 13, 2009 Not for me thanks. Must have a proper viewfinder for me to be interested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share #3 Posted June 13, 2009 Better than nothing or better than stop down metering with Canikon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 13, 2009 Share #4 Posted June 13, 2009 I'd rather stop down meter than use a EVF like on the G1 Some have said here that the G1 EVF is the best EVF around. I spent some time with one yesterday, and it was more or less useless. SO dark, jittery, tiny. There's no way that you would want to manually focus with it (and I don't want to live view focus my R lenses thanks very much). If I want to live view, I will use the D-Lux. Sorry, but that just isn't good enough. Maybe if it was looking through a decent lens, and not the crappy kit lens that comes with it, I don't know, but certainly "off the shelf" it's not something that I would spend my money on. Lots of people like them, though, so, heck, what do I know? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted June 13, 2009 Share #5 Posted June 13, 2009 I too would rather stop down with a Canon 5D MKII than use any form of EVIL. If that's their solution they can keep it, I prefer a true reflex viewfinder anyday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 13, 2009 Share #6 Posted June 13, 2009 Not for me either (or at least I'd reserve judgment until I've seen it in use). I've just bought a Canon digital body and R adapter - not yet put it to proper use but initial impressions are better than I was expecting. It's a viable solution. The danger is that I might want to add a Canon lens or two for full functionality when needed, and where that might lead me! FWIW I think that the 'FF G1 or Digilux 3' will probably be a stop-gap camera for Leica, and its lenses will also fit a later proper DSLR introduced on the back of the S2, once that system is established in the market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 13, 2009 Share #7 Posted June 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not me either, unless there are radical improvements to the EVF in the meantime. Otherwise I wouldn't be interested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 13, 2009 Share #8 Posted June 13, 2009 I'd rather stop down meter than use a EVF like on the G1 Some have said here that the G1 EVF is the best EVF around. I spent some time with one yesterday, and it was more or less useless. SO dark, jittery, tiny. There's no way that you would want to manually focus with it (and I don't want to live view focus my R lenses thanks very much). If I want to live view, I will use the D-Lux. Sorry, but that just isn't good enough. Maybe if it was looking through a decent lens, and not the crappy kit lens that comes with it, I don't know, but certainly "off the shelf" it's not something that I would spend my money on. Lots of people like them, though, so, heck, what do I know? That "crappy kit lens" is actually not bad; I'm afraid too many people who rail against the G1 forget how little it costs in relation to the normal stuff we work with. It's actually a credit to Panasonic they bothered to put in a finder at all and it's much better than the dismal Digilux 2 effort. The finder gets better if you put a fast lens on it but inevitably it becomes grainy and laggy when the light falls, just as an SLR's screen becomes dim, even dare I say it, an R8/R9's. I'm quite sure Leica will realise this will be a deal breaker for many but it seems that none of the options open to them provide a conventional viewfinder. Leica will have some idea how much R kit is out there and will have produced a sales forecast. I think their business case would be stronger if this new camera could accept both M and R glass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 13, 2009 Share #9 Posted June 13, 2009 I think their business case would be stronger if this new camera could accept both M and R glass. Well since there's no flappy mirror to foul the back of the M lenses that's a possibility. I'm trying to put a positive spin on the news, but I'm finding it difficult to do. I can imagine why Leica have had to do what they've done, but I'm sure its a blow to many. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted June 13, 2009 Share #10 Posted June 13, 2009 Not me either, unless there are radical improvements to the EVF in the meantime. Otherwise I wouldn't be interested. Same here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnastovall Posted June 13, 2009 Share #11 Posted June 13, 2009 Not me but if you must do it Leica, PLEASE no pop up flash! And where is it written an EVF must be in the middle of the camera with a hump. Put it over on the left side so there's a nice smooth top. Don't make it a Faux-dSLR. It doesn't need to look like it has a pentaprism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted June 13, 2009 Share #12 Posted June 13, 2009 Seems pretty clear that the next "R" camera will be a full frame G1 to me. Any thoughts? Who at Leica stated this with certainty? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share #13 Posted June 13, 2009 Who at Leica stated this with certainty? No one to my knowledge. Better ask Carl Bretteville and other attendants to the Forum meeting in Hessenpark. See: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/89060-hessenpark-news-official-no-r10-no.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 13, 2009 Share #14 Posted June 13, 2009 Keep in mind that we are at the very early stages of EVFs. They surely can be improved and there is no reason for them to be dim right now. Image amplification for low light work is also a possibility. (My Konica Minolta A2 has that.) And various ways of implementing and using EVFs will come up. For instance when photographing a person, I don't see why there couldn't be a magnified view of just the face inserted into the center of the overall composition. That way you could more easily judge expression. Then look at the overall direction where electronic technology can take photography. Think of the possibilities with EVF. Video is becoming common now. Some cameras have face recognition technology. With enough processing power, I think a camera will be able to understand the subject you have chosen and track focus on it with speed and accuracy. A couple of cameras have sweep panorama mode. I'm sure there are lots of other ideas that engineers can come up with. Sony in particular has inserted a lot of electronic ideas into their H2. As for Leica. Making a FF EVF camera will not only be a platform for new AF lenses and the R lenses, but should also be able to utilize M lenses. This will give a FF solution to at least some of the lenses and ultimately may allow use of all M lenses in FF mode. So if they want, and the market will support it, Leica could introduce a model that has the typical M rangefinder mechanism and a clip on EVF. Or maybe it will have just an optical viewfinder and use the AF mechanism for more accurate focus confirmation with M lenses. Closed loop AF focus confirmation solves all of the issues of calibrating the M lenses and rangefinders. Maybe if they don't need the complete rangefinder mechanism, this will leave room for a zoom optical viewfinder. So the optical viewfinder version of an M has the potential to evolve in positive modern ways that solves some of the limitations that are legacy issues of the mechanical linkage. This design concept will enable them to have one basic modern AF EVF electronic camera (perhaps with a lower priced line of lenses) that can be sold in quantity and also utilize that same technology for a rangefinder variation that may be profitable even when sold in much lower quantities. I think that is the road map for the M as I don't see Leica having the resources or design possibilities to significantly modernize the M in any other way. It may eventually turn out that the EVF camera does so well with M lenses that there won't be that big a demand for a optical viewfinder version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted June 13, 2009 Share #15 Posted June 13, 2009 As for Leica. Making a FF EVF camera will not only be a platform for new AF lenses and the R lenses, but should also be able to utilize M lenses. This will give a FF solution to at least some of the lenses and ultimately may allow use of all M lenses in FF mode. So if they want, and the market will support it, Leica could introduce a model that has the typical M rangefinder mechanism and a clip on EVF. Or maybe it will have just an optical viewfinder and use the AF mechanism for more accurate focus confirmation with M lenses. This is not about M lenses, it's about R lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 13, 2009 Share #16 Posted June 13, 2009 If FF in this case refers to 24x36mm then I suspect there's still a lot of technical difficulties to overcome, therefore S.D. says it probably won't happen even after the next Kina. The closest thing to what we're talking about here to date is the Sony R1, a fixed lens EVF camera with an APS-C sensor larger than all the Panasonic/Olympus cohorts. I'm not sure how many folks here have used the Sony R1, if not ... you could take a look at it on dpreview. Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Review: 1. Introduction: Digital Photography Review If Sony could do it back in 2005, then there should be no problem for Panasonic/Leica to do it (even better) in 2010. Two major changes would be making the lenses interchangeable as well as adding live view ... which are fairly easy IMO. I'm open to all kind of changes as long as the end results is good, and picture quality is all that matters to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted June 13, 2009 Share #17 Posted June 13, 2009 If the design were to be well executed I'd buy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 13, 2009 Share #18 Posted June 13, 2009 This is not about M lenses, it's about R lenses. I don't think so. R lenses are not even in production any more. It will be about new AF lenses primarily plus R lenses, and M lenses too. If the body is thin enough, (and why shouldn't it be without a mirror) a lot of different lenses could be adapted to it. M lenses would be a no brainer. Surely the S2 lenses will work on it also. Maybe with a tilt/shift adapter that preserves all electronic lens communication. This would be a simple and economical way of providing a lot of tilt/shift performance to the camera as the lenses will already have been developed. I've been ahead of this "announcement" for some time and I've been correct so far. Trust me. There are many possibilities here. If Leica survives and is successful financially, this will eventually merge to replace the M8 design as the platform to accommodate manual M lenses too. Just as it looks like it will become the platform for existing R lenses. There could be a model with an optical viewfinder and electronic rangefinder or focus confirmation. Do you really think Leica is going to do parallel development of two entirely different 35mm format digital bodies when one design will suffice? Why doubt me? It is simply applying logic to the situation. Isn't this obvious? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted June 13, 2009 Share #19 Posted June 13, 2009 Alan +1 Yevgeny Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
berndr Posted June 13, 2009 Share #20 Posted June 13, 2009 Hello, I want to come back to the topic. I would buy such a camera:D. I see many advantages for an electronic viewfinder: - The focus accuracy of the G1 Finder for manual focus is better then the M rangefinder and this for any lens from 12 to 2000 mm FF lenses, especially in low light! - What you see is what you get. The depth of field can be seen brightly on the screen. In an SLR normaly you see only the open aperture view (when stopped down things got really dark). In the rangefinder you see something totally different (everything is sharp and the frames are more or less correct). - No problems with focusshift! I'am sure many R designs have problems with focusshift. Used on classical DSLR the only solution is a rejustage of the lens (if possible). - The G1 finder can be improved (higher update rates, higher resolution in low light, better optics, ...) - I can imagine a rangefinder like view for manual focusing (whole picture shown and in the middel a focus magnifier) - Hints can be shown (over/under exposer zones, lines, histogram, ...) - The ELV also a high quality finder, can be build cheaper then a mirrorbox - The camera design can be more ergonomically (M like finder position). The camera can be more compact. Also a modular system might be possible but I would not prefer this. I hope that panasonic will be the partner for such a camera. When they can build a FF sensor and they wanted to reach the pro market then this might be their way. The FF Sensor might be a multiformat Sensor within the R-lens-picture-circle. The best thing will be, that the solution will not be so far away. The development will be done faster then it can be done by Leica itself. I hope that Leica is able to give the input for the camera ergonomics. Simple controls and a good working camera in non-asian hands. One of the main disadvantages of the G1 is the handling, to small buttons, no easy intuitive usage, to small body for my hands. And there will be a new Leica AF lense line for a high density FF sensor! After Leica has stopped the production of the R lenses I was really angry because for me it was the sign that there will be no future R camera. The new statements show, they still think of there R customers. Not perfect for everyone but with a long future for the R lenses and many new possibilities. Only when there is a huge market for such a camera there might be sometimes a market for new manualfocus R lenses for traditionalists! I hope my english was not to bad! Kind regards, Bernd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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