hoppyman Posted June 14, 2009 Share #221 Posted June 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Peter about 100 plus Leica enthusiasts in a room asking for any new information and Leica provided some definite facts which were responses to a question list put to them. Of course they will make official announcements later on decisions that have been made. Personally as an attendee I thought that they were generous telling us as much as they did in advance of the official announcements. Now Carl and Jaap have been kind enough to share with the whole list (the initial info within one MINUTE of Herr Daniels starting to speak to the dinner). I don't see why you are irritated by hearing some new facts ahead of the official announcements to come, nor why you would question what Carl and Jaap passed on. By the way I personally observed Jaap asking questions and chatting after the dinner. You might imagine that a number of people were gathered around Herr Daniel all of the time. I could not follow that conversation as I don't speak German. Of course Herr Daniel would not provide any company 'classified' information. He spoke with the full intention of his information being shared with this list. His people also said that they do like to review the feedback on the forum (and that any fault is likely to appear on this list before any other discovery ;-) They also don't want to run their own forum as 'it would be too stressfull" Would you rather have not heard this advance information? I can tell you that everyone who was there disagrees with that. Let me step back for a minute and get this straight:Stephan Daniel makes announcements to the forum members in Hessenpark that Andy kindly posted here (through the help of Carl and others, thanks for that) Than he sits down for a quite conversation/private chat/heart to heart with jaap, and comes up with this EVIL/EVF story and jaap posts this (classified?) info here and everyone buys this just like that? Don't we need verifycation from an official source? Is this the way Leica communicates now? Is that how it's done? How can I as a customer be certain of this news? How official is this? I've more than €20.000 invested in Leica stuff and I certainly would have thought that the kind of news that has been brought to us this weekend could have been announced in a more professional way. No offense to anyone in particular. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Hi hoppyman, Take a look here Hessenpark News: Official - No R10: no FF M9 (yet). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share #222 Posted June 14, 2009 Let me step back for a minute and get this straight:Stephan Daniel makes announcements to the forum members in Hessenpark that Andy kindly posted here (through the help of Carl and others, thanks for that) Than he sits down for a quite conversation/private chat/heart to heart with jaap, and comes up with this EVIL/EVF story and jaap posts this (classified?) info here and everyone buys this just like that? Don't we need verifycation from an official source? Peter Next year, come to Hessenpark, and hear for yourself. It's a very interesting weekend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share #223 Posted June 14, 2009 What I find so impressive in all this is that the Company announces it's complete Product Strategy to a small group of camera owners on a factory tour. No press announcements, no handouts, all word of mouth to an international group. Quite amazing and it's what makes Leica so special. Give the bad news out in a controlled way. You too should come over from B.A. and hear what Herr Daniel has to say about strategy. I was there last year, and would have been there this year had it not been for some unfortunate personal circumstances that I won't bore you with personally, but I have to say that Herr Daniel is very open with members of the forum. No booze is required. Now, if you don't believe the word of Herr Daniel, then that's another matter all together Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugat Posted June 14, 2009 Share #224 Posted June 14, 2009 I was at the annual mercedes tea party and heard that all gasoline (petrol) engines will be discontinued. Nothing is known about the service, maybe none to be provided and no spare parts. I also heard that the diesels will be continued but no details were revealed. Mercedes hopes that all slack from gasoline models termination will be taken over by diesels. They plan some press release in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 14, 2009 Share #225 Posted June 14, 2009 As I said earlier, I suspect that the new body will most likely be a Digilux (I suspect Digilux 4 rather than Digilux R though, as I can't see them using the R name again, given what's been said about the R line recently) developed through the Panasonic alliance. There will probably be new, smaller AF lenses designed for use on this new body, with legacy R lenses mounting via a PanaLeica adapter, similar to the official adapters recently introduced by Panasonic for the G1/G1H. Although some traditional R users are no doubt finding this development hard to take at the moment, it could well be the only economically viable option, or an inspired development, or both. Only time will tell. If Leica decides that taking a short line to a new camera is their new mode of operation I will GLADLY walk away from Leica. You don't price yourself as the "elite" camera manufacturer and design systems that aren't to elite standards. It's like McDonalds trying to sell a $20.00 burger. It just won't fly. Leica should be the best or go out of business because they will most definitely go out of business if they try to sell a Yugo as a Rolls. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCoupe Posted June 14, 2009 Share #226 Posted June 14, 2009 Oh, Ms. Maike, This R news breaks my heart!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 14, 2009 Share #227 Posted June 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... You don't price yourself as the "elite" camera manufacturer and design systems that aren't to elite standards... Leica should be the best or go out of business... That's what they are doing apparently. They're going out of the R business with hope they can be the best in niches they have created for themselves: the M and the S2. Oh well for R users. If they don't want Canikon's stop down metering, a FF G1 or whatever EVIL will be goud enough for them. And if they don't like both they might well buy Zeiss lenses instead. QED. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 15, 2009 Share #228 Posted June 15, 2009 That's what they are doing apparently. They're going out of the R business with hope they can be the best in niches they have created for themselves: the M and the S2. Oh well for R users. If they don't want Canikon's stop down metering, a FF G1 or whatever EVIL will be goud enough for them. And if they don't like both they might well buy Zeiss lenses instead. QED. I love you cavalier attitude. Your sincerity to R users is obvious. Such a shame you can't see the tunnel. I'll come back when the M fate is the same and wish you the same genuine concern. Will be my pleasure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 15, 2009 Share #229 Posted June 15, 2009 I love you cavalier attitude. Your sincerity to R users is obvious. Such a shame you can't see the tunnel. I'll come back when the M fate is the same and wish you the same genuine concern. Will be my pleasure. But i am a R user! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #230 Posted June 15, 2009 Well great Riccis. You keep using a $5,000.00 camera to do what almost any $600 camera produced today can do. Makes sense to me..... You either have a great sense of humor / sarcasm or have no idea what other genre's of photography are out there, I am really hoping it is the former since the latter would be very sad. I own a Canon G10, great camera for what it does, but it has loads of depth of field. I also own 4 Leica M film bodies, all of which afford me a shooting style and look not easily attained in a SLR. For the past few days, I have been on a shoot in which a near silent, journalistic style was needed. There were times where the light was low, AF was locking on things I did not find I agreed with, manually focusing was tough without a R/F patch. I was really wanting an M8.2 right about then... So judging by what you shoot, what a Leica M offers is not what you need. But to make ignorant statements that there is no market or use for the M is, well, ludicrous. But you realize that...right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 15, 2009 Share #231 Posted June 15, 2009 But i am a R user! Then it would have been more appropriate to use the word "we" in the following sentence instead of "they". And if they don't like both they might well buy Zeiss lenses instead. QED. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 15, 2009 Share #232 Posted June 15, 2009 You either have a great sense of humor / sarcasm or have no idea what other genre's of photography are out there, I am really hoping it is the former since the latter would be very sad. I own a Canon G10, great camera for what it does, but it has loads of depth of field. I also own 4 Leica M film bodies, all of which afford me a shooting style and look not easily attained in a SLR. For the past few days, I have been on a shoot in which a near silent, journalistic style was needed. There were times where the light was low, AF was locking on things I did not find I agreed with, manually focusing was tough without a R/F patch. I was really wanting an M8.2 right about then... So judging by what you shoot, what a Leica M offers is not what you need. But to make ignorant statements that there is no market or use for the M is, well, ludicrous. But you realize that...right? No, I don't realize that. What I do realize is that people in here, if you disagree with them, LOVE to call the opposing thought; ignorant, stupid, uninformed or some such other 6th grade argument that makes them feel better about themselves. You named ONE situation where the M works for you. Great. Use it. I have shot every size, shape and type of camera there is for almost 30 years. To try and tell me that there aren't 6-8 cameras in the $600 range capable of doing what the M can do is being uniformed or you love your jewelry. But go ahead, if it makes you feel good about yourself to have a disagreement and use words like ignorant to puff yourself up, have at it. Hopefully, it works for you. The future of Leica isn't in the hands of the 60 and 70 year old photographers. It is in the hands of a new age of digital. Spitting against the wind tends to make you wet. Arguing with juvenile phrases tends to cause the reader to dismiss you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 15, 2009 Share #233 Posted June 15, 2009 Then it would have been more appropriate to use the word "we" in the following sentence instead of "they"... Just a form of rhetoric. I do fall into the last category so my next move will be to buy a couple of Zeiss lenses for my 5D as soon as they launch the 50/2 and 28/2 for Canon most probably. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 15, 2009 Share #234 Posted June 15, 2009 Just a form of rhetoric. I do fall into the last category so my next move will be to buy a couple of Zeiss lenses for my 5D as soon as they launch the 50/2 and 28/2 for Canon most probably. And that is Leica's loss. Best of luck to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 15, 2009 Share #235 Posted June 15, 2009 And that is Leica's loss... Oh well for them who said oh well for me. But i'll keep using my good old M and R lenses for sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #236 Posted June 15, 2009 Name the 6-8 cameras Gary, I want to see what you are on about. I have used every kind of camera from 35mm to 8x10 in my 34 years as a photographer. What the Leica M offers is NOT what you and Paulmoore studio are looking for, that is fine, but why discount who IS using it? Tell you what, if what talented people like Riccis say is not good enough for you, then give this Leica user a call, drop him a line and propose to him how worthless the digital M is in your limited view: David Alan Harvey He is a friend of mine, pretty good shooter too...;-) Look Gary, I feel for you in terms of losing the R system, and I am not discounting your disappointment in that. But you are totally discounting the value of the digital M for YOUR needs and YOUR perceptions, that can't be good for you and you are not going to earn any respect from other people here if you do that. No, I don't realize that. What I do realize is that people in here, if you disagree with them, LOVE to call the opposing thought; ignorant, stupid, uninformed or some such other 6th grade argument that makes them feel better about themselves. You named ONE situation where the M works for you. Great. Use it. I have shot every size, shape and type of camera there is for almost 30 years. To try and tell me that there aren't 6-8 cameras in the $600 range capable of doing what the M can do is being uniformed or you love your jewelry. But go ahead, if it makes you feel good about yourself to have a disagreement and use words like ignorant to puff yourself up, have at it. Hopefully, it works for you. The future of Leica isn't in the hands of the 60 and 70 year old photographers. It is in the hands of a new age of digital. Spitting against the wind tends to make you wet. Arguing with juvenile phrases tends to cause the reader to dismiss you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 15, 2009 Share #237 Posted June 15, 2009 Name the 6-8 cameras Gary, I want to see what you are on about. I have used every kind of camera from 35mm to 8x10 in my 34 years as a photographer. What the Leica M offers is NOT what you and Paulmoore studio are looking for, that is fine, but why discount who IS using it? Tell you what, if what talented people like Riccis say is not good enough for you, then give this Leica user a call, drop him a line and propose to him how worthless the digital M is in your limited view: David Alan Harvey He is a friend of mine, pretty good shooter too...;-) Look Gary, I feel for you in terms of losing the R system, and I am not discounting your disappointment in that. But you are totally discounting the value of the digital M for YOUR needs and YOUR perceptions, that can't be good for you and you are not going to earn any respect from other people here if you do that. Respect me? I didn't use the word Ignorant when I was having this discussion. If your only respect is technical info then I feel badly for you. Having a debate without crawling in the ditch of name calling is something I respect. Funny how you ignored that part of my message. And might I suggest that you stand on your own feet. There is no intelligence/talent by association. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #238 Posted June 15, 2009 Respect me? I didn't use the word Ignorant when I was having this discussion. If your only respect is technical info then I feel badly for you. Having a debate without crawling in the ditch of name calling is something I respect. Funny how you ignored that part of my message. And might I suggest that you stand on your own feet. There is no intelligence/talent by association. Fine, label retracted. People here know my work, they know my passion, that is why I referred you to David, I don't need to horn toot. Just try to realize that there are and will be people who need / want the the M system to continue on with a digital M. If you want to produce the names of the 6-8 cameras so that other people here can tell you what they think, that would great. I really don't need to see them, I know what I want out of my life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #239 Posted June 15, 2009 No, I don't realize that. What I do realize is that people in here, if you disagree with them, LOVE to call the opposing thought; ignorant, stupid, uninformed or some such other 6th grade argument that makes them feel better about themselves. You named ONE situation where the M works for you. Great. Use it. I have shot every size, shape and type of camera there is for almost 30 years. To try and tell me that there aren't 6-8 cameras in the $600 range capable of doing what the M can do is being uniformed or you love your jewelry. But go ahead, if it makes you feel good about yourself to have a disagreement and use words like ignorant to puff yourself up, have at it. Hopefully, it works for you. The future of Leica isn't in the hands of the 60 and 70 year old photographers. It is in the hands of a new age of digital. Spitting against the wind tends to make you wet. Arguing with juvenile phrases tends to cause the reader to dismiss you. Are you for real? This 45 year old photographer has been using M's for almost 20 years now. They are unique, in particular when one is traveling in far flung locales and wants to make images of the highest quality yet doesn't want to bring too much attention to themselves and most importantly doesn't want to break their back. I can fit six M lenses and a body or two in a bag that would fit one slr and maybe three prime lenses if I was lucky. Personally, I think you actually have it the wrong way around. The reason the R is dead in the water vs the M is that there are way more $600 cameras that can replace an R than can even begin to touch what an M is about. If there was ever a camera for rich old fogeys it was the R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted June 15, 2009 Share #240 Posted June 15, 2009 Regardless, loss of a product line is never good, I am sure Norbert Rosing is not happy about the R system taking a dive: Welcome to Norbert Rosing I think everyone here needs to respect the fact that there are a ton of photographers who use Leica for a variety of reasons that have never posted here and probably never will. To be totally back on topic, I am very concerned with just how much capitol the S2 has drained from Leica. If it does not do well enough, this could create some real problems for the company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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