SteveYork Posted June 14, 2009 Share #201 Posted June 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) while I am sure you have your reasons for thinking as you do, I can't help but think it comes from a retro perspective..Maybe your other camera is a digital but from your own list I see no digital leica gear.. You may not be aware that Lecia history is steeped in innovation, and while yes, they could have developed a R10 instead of a S2, they took the less pedistrian path of innovation and developed what nobody else has.. a non cmos, larger than 35mmFF new format camera with digitally insprired fast AF lenses and optional leaf shutters..to name the first things that come to mind..instead of playing at nikanon's game they trumped them. Risk? sure.. but I woud rather be shooing in 6 months with a S2 than a FFdslr..period. regarding the numbers..I am not in that end of the business so have no idea how many units will be sold..but I for one think they made a smart, creative move..nobody new what this economy was going to be like 2 or3 years ago wihen they started down this path..it was bold regardless. I think a FFdslr would have been a tougher sell with such a crowded market. I have gotten good use out of my old r lenses and I will continue to use them and the newer ones I have bought..but it is old school and not the future.. some here have suggested that Leica just drop all but m lenses and work on new lenses for nikcan..I hope not. before I learned of the S2 I was looking for a larger than 35 camera..but hoping it would be non 2:3, I did not expect to see such a bold leap forward in size.. so I hope they think about making this next reflex option a supersized 3:4 camera that the legacy r lenses would work on as well as new AF optics. I am not a fan of the evf but am open to seeing what they think is a good solution as it would not be my main camera system. See above. Innovation is meaningless if the doors can't be kept open. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Hi SteveYork, Take a look here Hessenpark News: Official - No R10: no FF M9 (yet). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wattsy Posted June 14, 2009 Share #202 Posted June 14, 2009 Now it's only speculation on my part, but if Leica marketed a DSLR that was somewhat competitive, a lot of former R users who are now shooting Nikons and Canons would come back. Possibly, but I'm sure Leica have done their sums and concluded that they cannot profitably build an R10 - at any price. If it cannot be built for a profit then there really isn't much point doing it - unlike the S2 which may be worth doing at a (reasonable) loss if it reinvigorates the brand for a new generation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted June 14, 2009 Share #203 Posted June 14, 2009 Let me step back for a minute and get this straight: Stephan Daniel makes announcements to the forum members in Hessenpark that Andy kindly posted here (through the help of Carl and others, thanks for that) Than he sits down for a quite conversation/private chat/heart to heart with jaap, and comes up with this EVIL/EVF story and jaap posts this (classified?) info here and everyone buys this just like that? Don't we need verifycation from an official source? Is this the way Leica communicates now? Is that how it's done? How can I as a customer be certain of this news? How official is this? I've more than €20.000 invested in Leica stuff and I certainly would have thought that the kind of news that has been brought to us this weekend could have been announced in a more professional way. No offense to anyone in particular. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted June 14, 2009 Share #204 Posted June 14, 2009 That's good news....It seems the folks at Leica are on the right track lately. 35mm DSLR users are not really driven by a commitment to high IQ. They (both professional and hobbyist) are generally motivated by practicality. The IQ advantages of a Leica DSLR over a Canon or Nikon will be too subtle for the majority of 35mm DSLR shooters to understand and they won't spend the money. In general, the vast majority of 35mm DSLR shooters are married to mediocrity. Sorry if that's offensive to some people...but it's just the truth from the POV of selling a camera. On the other hand, I've found that M series and rangefinder users in general are some of the most sophisticated camera buyers I've ever encountered. There are plenty of hobbyists and weekend warriors in these forums that have a better understanding of IQ than many people that make their living with a camera. The M series should continue to do very well for a long time to come..... There is a huge hole in the medium format market for a high quality camera system. Hasselblad and Mamiya are nice....but there is plenty of room for improvement. The S2 has a good chance in this market but it might take 5-10 years to really take off.... Any good business owner knows that his core audience is the most important to keep happy...I'm sure that the folks at Leica have gotta be close to a FF M8 upgrade in order to keep their base happy. But they would have to keep it quiet....that would make excellent business sense....and bust out news as a surprise right around when the S2 is launched (so that M users won't feel neglected by the release of the S). That would be my guess anyway. I htink that that the release of the M8.2 and it's basic upgrades was a good indication that the next generation digital M was going to be the real deal. Just one man's opinion... not like the forum needed another one LOL very well written! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #205 Posted June 14, 2009 Let me step back for a minute and get this straight:Stephan Daniel makes announcements to the forum members in Hessenpark that Andy kindly posted here (through the help of Carl and others, thanks for that) Than he sits down for a quite conversation/private chat/heart to heart with jaap, and comes up with this EVIL/EVF story and jaap posts this (classified?) info here and everyone buys this just like that? Don't we need verifycation from an official source? Is this the way Leica communicates now? Is that how it's done? How can I as a customer be certain of this news? How official is this? I've more than €20.000 invested in Leica stuff and I certainly would have thought that the kind of news that has been brought to us this weekend could have been announced in a more professional way. No offense to anyone in particular. I agree with your point.....I have read the previous pages at length on this thread and am now really confused compared to when I started: Leica decide NO "R10" (means NO "R" body and no more "R" lenses I guess)...... > This is consistent with selling off all "R" items at SHPhoto. > If I had just bought a "R" system expecting a new "R" as was rumoured even last week I would not be a happy bunny! > It probably makes sense for Leica as taking on Canon or Nikon with no clear differentiator DSLR differentiation other than higher price and Leica badge maybe tough for them. Leica say there will be a way for "R" users to use their old lenses, but do not say how: > S2 .....what at £17K for a body !! and then an adapter > M9 ...plus Viso or EVF / Live view...I think this makes sense for them > Third Party Camera .......This would be a major departure for their pro type camera and I am not sure why people would buy it. Also if the intent was to serve the existing"R" client base and not to add new stuff....The Servable (SAM) rather than the total available market (TAM) is small ...a dangerous strategy. If they enabled the M9 with Viso (or other technical solution) to do Macro and telephoto this would be a good move for people who are ready to pay say £4k (body) plus £8K lenses (Wide to 90mm set) ...for the basic M kit plus something more for some extra lenses and a bellows or fast focus device ( another £6K to £8K ?) .........or an amount equivalent to the S2 body alone.. I think it speaks volumes about where S2 is going to be positioned ....a £30K to £40K camera that puts it firmly in Hasselblad territory I guess and certainly a pro camera that very very few amateurs will enjoy. Maybe a few pop stars and celebrities as they will probably need help to carry it (camera plus lenses) quite apart from the cost! I shall now eagerly await to see how many Forum users convert to being believers in the Viso or the EVF / Liveview as an absolute need for M users and how many "R" owners follow suit! It just makes sense for everyone! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 14, 2009 Share #206 Posted June 14, 2009 Leica say there will be a way for "R" users to use their old lenses, but do not say how: ... > M9 ...plus Viso or EVF / Live view...I think this makes sense for them Frank, how many times do you have to be told, it would be impossible to use existing R lenses with a Visio device on an M! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 14, 2009 Share #207 Posted June 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Anyone that believes an EVF viewfinder is better than optics simply doesn't have a clue. Nuances of shades, colors and light on a screen just can't match the human eye and glass. Just no way. http://www.garydwhalen.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShyTot Posted June 14, 2009 Share #208 Posted June 14, 2009 What I find so impressive in all this is that the Company announces it's complete Product Strategy to a small group of camera owners on a factory tour. No press announcements, no handouts, all word of mouth to an international group. Quite amazing and it's what makes Leica so special. Give the bad news out in a controlled way. "Another beer, Stefan?". Puts Stefan Daniel into perspective as a top marketeer. Be interesting to see what the magazine editors make of this leak. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 14, 2009 Share #209 Posted June 14, 2009 What I find so impressive in all this is that the Company announces it's complete Product Strategy to a small group of camera owners on a factory tour. No press announcements, no handouts, all word of mouth to an international group. Quite amazing and it's what makes Leica so special. Give the bad news out in a controlled way. "Another beer, Stefan?". Puts Stefan Daniel into perspective as a top marketeer. Be interesting to see what the magazine editors make of this leak. Special??? Maybe you were being sarcastic. To me, it makes Leica seem like it is totally out of control with no one in charge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #210 Posted June 14, 2009 Frank, how many times do you have to be told, it would be impossible to use existing R lenses with a Visio device on an M! Are you saying that the lens heads for the (Tely 200mm) , Telyt 280mm Telyt 400mm, Telyt 560mm do not fit a Viso ? I have these and I have two rear tubes for the 400 and 560mm ....one fits the "R" and the other the "old Viso" . If you are saying that later "R" lenses do not fit you maybe right but then I would counter that surely this can be comprehended in a new viso that is designed to accommodate the different register lengths. I also recognise that this would not be a way forward for none Telephoto "R" lenses. that would be used at infinity (ie wide angle to 200mm ) I believe that any lenses that had detachable parts would be an opportunity for a bellows in a macro range . Am I wrong on any of the above? If so please advise and I shall get off this page and learn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 14, 2009 Share #211 Posted June 14, 2009 I'm referring to current R lenses. You know, the ones that Leica have said there'll be a solution for. The difference in registers between the M and R lenses is insufficient to allow for a mirror box to fit. Wishing that there was sufficient space won't make it possible. If you believe otherwise, please explain how you would fit a moving mirror into the few millimetres available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #212 Posted June 14, 2009 Anyone that believes an EVF viewfinder is better than optics simply doesn't have a clue. Nuances of shades, colors and light on a screen just can't match the human eye and glass. Just no way. GD Whalen Photography I agree in broad terms as a purist and I am not a fan of EVF at all. That said let's look at some facts: 1 Many of us use a monitor and "Adobe photo shop" to balance, crop and touch up the image. A true pro would: > Use a full spec colour balanced monitor to look at their prints. Sony only recently introduced such an item with a LCD screen. So basically you should be using a CRT pro screen to checkout your pictures. > Go through the trouble of callibrating some test prints with his print supplier against what he has seen on the CRT. The callib. settings should then be used forever afterwards but due to drift they should also be periodically checked. > Very few people (pros) actually do this I am told. 2 We should all use the white balance control and colour saturation callibration......I have so far not done this and I find the book not too helpful...but I know from video work it is very important. Again I am told many pros do not do this or take a white balance reading outside in heavy sunlight and then shoot indoors! 3 I agree that nuances of shade and colour are going to be lost in a "tichy" viewfinder! With sunlight shining on it, I believe even focussing is going to be a nightmare. They need some sort of clip on sun visor I would believe. Overall I believe nuances of shade and colour is the art of the photographer looking at a scene and spotting how to take it and from where. 4 On a more positive note if they can use technology to zoom in (centre spot) at a pixel level and check focus, plus allow framing of the shot (zoom out) they may have something that is acceptable and would differentaite the M camera. I could believe some smart people at Leica could develop such an animal and patent it asap! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 14, 2009 Share #213 Posted June 14, 2009 I'm referring to current R lenses. You know, the ones that Leica have said there'll be a solution for. The difference in registers between the M and R lenses is insufficient to allow for a mirror box to fit. Wishing that there was sufficient space won't make it possible. If you believe otherwise, please explain how you would fit a moving mirror into the few millimetres available. OK if that is what you mean YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT...excuse me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 14, 2009 Share #214 Posted June 14, 2009 Anyone that believes an EVF viewfinder is better than optics simply doesn't have a clue. Nuances of shades, colors and light on a screen just can't match the human eye and glass. Just no way. GD Whalen Photography The main difference is that an optical finder uses the entire dynamic range of your vision. So you can see into the deep shadows and bright highlights at the same time. The amount of detail an optical viewfinder can display is contingent on your visual acuity. On the other hand, an EVF comes closer to simulating what the captured image will look like and can amplify and magnify the image. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted June 14, 2009 Share #215 Posted June 14, 2009 I do find this methodology of informing their client base quite extraordinary. It is like governments drip feeding us information by inspired "leaks" and we know how popular most European Governments are with their voters at present, from the percentage turn out at the recent EU elections. If this information is all true and complete, I worry for Leica's future. I would have thought an M8-3 with a lower noise 14 to 16 MP sensor but still 1.3X crop was a much higher priority and a much easier task than any other possibility out there. Of course, if Kodak is unwilling or unable to produce such a sensor, they are are pretty much stuck, as I guess it would be too difficult to switch sensor manufacturer. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted June 14, 2009 Share #216 Posted June 14, 2009 What I find so impressive in all this is that the Company announces it's complete Product Strategy to a small group of camera owners on a factory tour. No press announcements, no handouts, all word of mouth to an international group. Quite amazing and it's what makes Leica so special. Give the bad news out in a controlled way. "Another beer, Stefan?". Puts Stefan Daniel into perspective as a top marketeer. Be interesting to see what the magazine editors make of this leak. Who knows, maybe they were serving up red herrings for dinner? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandokan Posted June 14, 2009 Share #217 Posted June 14, 2009 I was sorry to miss the Friday dinner due to work reaons. On Saturday afternoon, we discussed what the others heard and had lots of fun putting together our own ideas. Far more fun than this thread . Wait until the others return home and let them write down what they thought. Ravi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted June 14, 2009 Share #218 Posted June 14, 2009 I've been otherwise occupied this weekend so have just caught up with this. I tend to agree with adan's 'new CEO and the economy' theory to answer the "why" question. As for the "what" and "who with" of an R solution.......well we'll have to wait a while yet but the best guess for now seems to be, taking into account recent model history and the EVF plus other comments, a non-4/3rd's Digilux 4 and the Panasonic alliance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugat Posted June 14, 2009 Share #219 Posted June 14, 2009 The next and maybe last Leica release will be at Mr Kaufmanns sofa. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted June 14, 2009 Share #220 Posted June 14, 2009 As I said earlier, I suspect that the new body will most likely be a Digilux (I suspect Digilux 4 rather than Digilux R though, as I can't see them using the R name again, given what's been said about the R line recently) developed through the Panasonic alliance. There will probably be new, smaller AF lenses designed for use on this new body, with legacy R lenses mounting via a PanaLeica adapter, similar to the official adapters recently introduced by Panasonic for the G1/G1H. Although some traditional R users are no doubt finding this development hard to take at the moment, it could well be the only economically viable option, or an inspired development, or both. Only time will tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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