rosuna Posted June 17, 2009 Share #321 Posted June 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) So the S2 has an EVF ? The S2 can be competitive now... and the reflex mirror-based concept can make sense for large formats for a longer period... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 17, 2009 Posted June 17, 2009 Hi rosuna, Take a look here Hessenpark News: Official - No R10: no FF M9 (yet). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted June 17, 2009 Share #322 Posted June 17, 2009 They use it just because they have an inherited system from the film days. And that may be a problem for them in a few years... And the same goes for Nikon and Sony. New opportunities will be open to other companies that will be able to offer competitive products based on mirror-less cameras. The latest Mamiya backs have a "live preview" mode for framing and focus. This has a very slow frame rate so it would just be useful for shooting still objects. But it solves a big problem of working in the field with a non-slr technical camera. For architectural shooting for instance. They top out at 31 megapixels and the 22 megapixel one is the only 48.9x36.7mm version. So "live preview" could be a sign of future developments - not so important on an SLR. Although I'm sure that still life shooters will use the live preview on a computer or remote monitor so they can adjust the objects on the set without going back and forth to the camera. A real time saver. There is nothing stopping Canon, Nikon and others from adding an integrated EVF or a clip on EVF at any time as the cameras already have live view. I'm sure we'll see accessory EVFs for the current cameras as some are now used for video. The cameras already have HDMI ports. It would be a pretty simple matter to make an entirely EVF version of any of the live view DSLR models by simply leaving out the mirror and prism and replacing that with an EVF. I bet dollars to donuts that all manufacturers are designing cameras like this now as it is so simple and obvious The AF may be slow on EVF versions of the current camera platforms unless they improve the contrast detect focus technology a lot. (Which Panasonic somehow has done and others should be able to improve upon.) Perhaps the early versions will be entry level models. I can imagine some kind of hybrid reflex/EVF viewfinder - or one that switches between the two modes for pro cameras. There are numerous design and feature possibilities as the camera's computer processing power increases. I don't even know if we are capable of imagining the possibilities of what can be achieved over the next 5-10 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 17, 2009 Share #323 Posted June 17, 2009 So kudos for EVFs. Pity that they are that ugly but never mind they will be marvelous in a few years so it's a good reason for Leica to prefer err... an optical viewfinder on a cropped MF camera. Simple no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 17, 2009 Share #324 Posted June 17, 2009 Just out of curiosity, how many folks will rearrange their lenses lineup once the FF M9 show up? this may affect the sales of some lenses too. I'm thinking of a 21/35/50 for myself. I think an M9 would strengthen the case for a 28mm Summilux because, presumably, the standard finder will go to 28mm and there may be a resurgence of interest in a 135... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share #325 Posted June 17, 2009 Are people still proposing that Live View is an acceptable choice ONLY for an "SLR"? So, you have to hold the camera, and lens, at arms length? Really? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 17, 2009 Share #326 Posted June 17, 2009 So, you have to hold the camera, and lens, at arms length? Really? Should be an interesting experience with a 560mm Telyt or one of the f2 teles. So I think the answer in no, Leica won't be proposing a purely live view solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted June 17, 2009 Share #327 Posted June 17, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Blecch. This is more and more leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I wish Leica would just announce their "plan" for stranded R digital users so I can have all my R glass converted for a Nikon mount. I don't want an EVF (oh I'm sure one day there will be wonderous EVFs, but right now they're total crap in anything but perfect light). I don't want a stupid increased crop factor on my lenses and I want a better-than-DMR sensor. Sigh. At least the D700 / D3 / D3xs are full-frame. It'll be awhile before Nikon gets rid of the D3/D3x viewfinder, and I miss using my 80R Lux as an 80... There's always a 5d2 as well, but I have to admit I'd rather change the mounts than use adapters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 17, 2009 Share #328 Posted June 17, 2009 Are people still proposing that Live View is an acceptable choice ONLY for an "SLR"? So, you have to hold the camera, and lens, at arms length? Really? I use live view when working on a tripod. It is sort of like using ground glass viewing on a 6x9 view camera only much brighter and easier. I shoot a lot of dusk shots. It is incredible in low light. Why not spend a few months using it before you dismiss it? Live view on an LCD (as distinct from an EVF) is a different way of working and is not suitable for all applications. How many years have you been using an SLR? I have a screen protector over the LCD causing the moire. There is a lot to be said for looking at the image on the LCD with both eyes and judging it as a finished "picture." Rather than using an optical viewfinder and trying to see the whole image at once and predict how it may look after it is shot. Of course you can always shoot and chimp. When I shot 6x6, sometimes I used a prism, and sometimes I shot at waist level using the groundglass. Get it? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/87751-hessenpark-news-official-no-r10-no-ff-m9-yet/?do=findComment&comment=935836'>More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 17, 2009 Share #329 Posted June 17, 2009 I use live view when working on a tripod... And how have you found it in bright sunlight hand held with a long lens? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 18, 2009 Share #330 Posted June 18, 2009 And how have you found it in bright sunlight hand held with a long lens? Did you read anything I wrote? I said I use it on a tripod!!! Not everything is ideal in every circumstance. I didn't shoot my 4x5 hand held either. You have to choose the right tool for the job. The 5DII LCD works well outside in sunlight too. But since you are asking, here is a shot made in low light, hand held using a 400 mm lens, live view and ISO 12800, 1/8th., at 5.6. I'll try to do a daylight hand held 400mm shot tomorrow if it stops raining. I'm sure I can do it, but of course I'd almost always use the optical viewfinder if I had to shoot fast moving subjects hand held with any lens. The bottom line is only time will tell if an EVF and live view LCD combo will work as well as an OVF live view combo. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/87751-hessenpark-news-official-no-r10-no-ff-m9-yet/?do=findComment&comment=935867'>More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted June 18, 2009 Share #331 Posted June 18, 2009 The latest Mamiya backs have a "live preview" mode for framing and focus. This has a very slow frame rate so it would just be useful for shooting still objects. But it solves a big problem of working in the field with a non-slr technical camera. For architectural shooting for instance. They top out at 31 megapixels and the 22 megapixel one is the only 48.9x36.7mm version. So "live preview" could be a sign of future developments - not so important on an SLR. Although I'm sure that still life shooters will use the live preview on a computer or remote monitor so they can adjust the objects on the set without going back and forth to the camera. A real time saver. Alan, These "Mamiya" backs are identical to the Phase One backs of the same megapixels (P21+, P25+, P30+). They are just rebranded. They do not feature Live View via the LCD, but rather Live Preview on your computer monitor when tethered through Capture One. Is this what you meant? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted June 18, 2009 Share #332 Posted June 18, 2009 Are people still proposing that Live View is an acceptable choice ONLY for an "SLR"? So, you have to hold the camera, and lens, at arms length? Really? For a small camera, such as the M8, "full time: live view, like that of small sensor cameras, is useful. Holding the camera in front of you, which so many people ridicule is helpful in several ways: 1. The subject does not know whether thew you are taking a picture of reviewing a shot. 2. You can use the LCD for establishing the edges of the shot while looking directly at the subject when pressing the shutter, which has obvious advantages, 3. In general, this way of shooting promotes a "looser" and more fluid shooting style, which is good for most type of street photography. Is anyone really saying that cameras should only have live view? Even small sensor cameras now have the provision for mounting an optical viewfinder when the user diesn't want to use the LCD. —Mitch/Bangkok Wild Beasts of Botswana Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 18, 2009 Share #333 Posted June 18, 2009 Alan, These "Mamiya" backs are identical to the Phase One backs of the same megapixels (P21+, P25+, P30+). They are just rebranded. They do not feature Live View via the LCD, but rather Live Preview on your computer monitor when tethered through Capture One. Is this what you meant? David It is useful tethered for interior work. It would be nice if it previewed to the LCD for exterior work with a technical camera. As who wants to remove the back to switch to a ground glass. Most people I know just shoot blind with their MF w/a cameras outside and then look at the LCD and repeat until it is right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 18, 2009 Share #334 Posted June 18, 2009 3. In general, this way of shooting promotes a "looser" and more fluid shooting style, which is good for most type of street photography. When I last bought a p&s camera I was big on having an optical finder. And that has been useful in bright light. But I generally use the LCD, both for a looser style and when I want to precisely frame something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share #335 Posted June 18, 2009 Aplogies for any typos - iPhone only forva couple ofvdays Perhaps I didn't ask the question clearly enough in the context of a LV only "replacement" for the R10 How would you use your 180 with it? And I don't mean on a tripod? You can't hold bigger heavier lenses at arms length, and, frankly, most of us R users dont want a "loose style" whatever that is. LV only is for a small light cameras, not big ones What about those of us who WANT a proper viewfinder anyway? Who is going to cater for us? It's like saying to died in the wool M users that p&s is the only way to go now, sorry, but it's what our customers want Well, we don't Maybe I'll get Stefan's D/L numbe from Frank and tell him personally Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted June 18, 2009 Share #336 Posted June 18, 2009 Are people still proposing that Live View is an acceptable choice ONLY for an "SLR"? So, you have to hold the camera, and lens, at arms length? Really? Andy, I too am one of these people who hates holding a camera at arms length. That was the main reason I went for a Ricoh GX200 with EVF (albeit a poor EVF) rather than a D-Lux 4. A fixed optical finder on a zoom lens compact does not quite seem to fit the bill to me. I suspect however, that the younger generation, who have grown up with LCD cameras and phones, will find the idea of sticking a camera in front of their faces, a weird idea. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted June 18, 2009 Share #337 Posted June 18, 2009 Andy - I totally agree, I'm tired of these people trying to ram these stupid EVFs down our throats as replacements for the DMR. Indeed that is definitely NOT what we want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted June 18, 2009 Share #338 Posted June 18, 2009 Perhaps I didn't ask the question clearly enough in the context of a LV only "replacement" for the R10 How would you use your 180 with it? And I don't mean on a tripod? You can't hold bigger heavier lenses at arms length, and, frankly, most of us R users dont want a "loose style" whatever that is. LV only is for a small light cameras, not big ones Andy, have I missed something or are you going off at a tangent? Everything i've seen suggests that the R-eplacement will have an eyepiece on the back - but aimed at a little LCD rather than a mirror/prism system. I haven't yet seen an EVF I like on a still camera, but one can always hope. BTW, no one seems to have mentioned that the EVFs on pro HD cameras - which I guess are the best around from the user-comfort point of view - are a good deal bigger than a 35mm prism system. Sony XDCAM PDW-530P While looking for that pic I discovered that if you buy an Arriflex or Arricam you have a choice of two different heated eyecups for winter filming. That makes the range of accessories for Leicas seem pretty feeble, doesn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted June 18, 2009 Share #339 Posted June 18, 2009 1. The subject does not know whether thew you are taking a picture of reviewing a shot. I'm not so sure about that. I can't recall seeing anyone reviewing pictures by holding the camera horizontally at eye level. The people I've seen reviewing photographs have tended to hold the camera almost vertically and look down at the screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 18, 2009 Share #340 Posted June 18, 2009 The “holding the camera at arm’s length” argument is a red herring. DSLRs supporting live view offer LV on the display as an additional option that is useful in some situations, not as a full-fledged alternative to the optical viewfinder. An EVIL camera, on the other hand, has a viewfinder in addition to its display (remember that ‘V’ in ‘EVIL’ is for ‘Viewfinder’), so there’s no need to hold it at arm’s length when that would be obviously impractical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.