SJP Posted June 9, 2009 Share #61 Posted June 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just going through the list 1) You can already using the macro-elmar or get an old visoflex, why waste good money on a new system for something which in most cases will only get occasional use? There is no desire for a new visoflex and/or not a sufficient market. 2) A typical M owner does not need or want to use lenses above 90mm, maybe 135 once in a while. Buy a 2nd hand 135 with goggles for about $300. 3) Yep, get an SLR there are plenty around for 500$ or less and a whole range of other compact systems that work OK 4) The M system is not an SLR or a compact or like anything else exept the other rangefinders that have the same quirks. If you buy a Ferrari (or a Smart for that matter) you do not expect it to be useful for home removal or crossing the desert. Still there is a market for such devices. Being different and impractical sells. C'est la vie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 Hi SJP, Take a look here Challenges for new Leica CEO. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted June 9, 2009 Share #62 Posted June 9, 2009 Again a rangefinder is a rangefinder. Why is it so difficult to understand? Those who cannot afford a Leica M can be happy with Zeiss, CV or Epson rangefinders as well. But if they want to do seriously macro or telephoto they need a reflex camera that's all. This was true 40 years ago and it's still so in the digital age. Nothing new under the sun. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 9, 2009 Share #63 Posted June 9, 2009 OK Those who will not hold their breath awaiting a new generation Visoflex with Telyt lenses...let me ask:1) Is this because there is no need for M owners to take close up (ie using bellows) photos? Doubt it! 2) Is it that the M owners do not need to use any lens above 90mm? I guess No! 3) Is it that M owners think that they will use the M system from 18 thru to 90mm (Probably spend say £3k for an M8 and a bunch of lenses at say another £6K to £8k for a Tri Elmar, and a Noctilux or some std. lenses) ....Then separately they will buy a separate SLR camera system for close ups and telephotos.) ? Sounds expensive for an amateur! 4) Is it because Leica will not do it as they are not convinced and are off building the "S" system , the DLux 4 system , the compacts and the custom specials, plus are looking at a new generation digital retrofittable "R" system? Possibly yes and then surely we should express our point of view as to an opportunity missed. Jaav you say that the lengths are different...I know as I have a 400mm and a 560mm Telyt with two adapter tubes...one for the Visoflex and one for the "R" system...The actual lens elements are at the end and are the same for both camera systems. I actually think the real issue is the weight balance of such a long lens if it were designed for two different camera systems.....but this is an engineering challenge, nothing else! Misconception: an M camera is not a full system camera. Most owners use a (D)SLR for those areas where that type of camera is best. personally, despite owning -and using- a full Visoflex system, normally shoot a DMR/R9 beside my M8 cameras. Much more practical. And yes, I have lenses for the Visoflex up to 800 mm. To quote one of the Leica primers I have, this one dating back to about 1965: The Leica M system is for those users that appreciate and are able to use the differences between a rangefinder system and an SLR system Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 9, 2009 Share #64 Posted June 9, 2009 Again a rangefinder is a rangefinder. Why is it so difficult to understand? Those who cannot afford a Leica M can be happy with Zeiss, CV or Epson rangefinders as well. But if they want to do seriously macro or telephoto they need a reflex camera that's all. This was true 40 years ago and it's still so in the digital age. Nothing new under the sun. Actually there is a lot new under the sun. Most p&s camera can shoot macro and they are not reflex cameras. A lot of p&s and EVF cameras have long lenses too. Technology now makes it possible to add functionality to the M system without using a reflex mechanism. To address the posted concerns of the OP, all Leica needs to do is add a 24 meg+ full frame sensor, live view, and a clip on EVF to the M line. The lenses that can't cover the full frame can be used in crop mode. The other lenses can be used in full frame. The EVF or live view LCD can be used when you want to shoot with a fisheye, tilt/shift, macro, long lenses, or whenever you need: 1. accurate framing, 2. to look out for lens flare 3. to adjust a polarizer or graduated filter 4. get focus confirmation 5. use a remote monitor - e.g. to adjust items on a still life set without going back and forth to the camera. And R lenses and other lenses will work on such a body. The upshot is that this will take nothing away from the M design yet will offer much more versatility and likely would make the M into a more viable choice for some photographers, thus increasing sales. What will be the advantage for the M to be pretty much the only camera without live view? (Many MF camera users would love to have live view too but at least many of them solve some of the issues via a reflex system.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted June 9, 2009 Share #65 Posted June 9, 2009 Whew! Gentlemen, 64 posts in some 30 hours. This is not a troll. While you may disagree with his views, I would expect some slack being given to a "neuer benutzer". I was a bit disappointed in some of the earlier responses especially. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 9, 2009 Share #66 Posted June 9, 2009 We all know where the sweet spot of M photography is and it's the finest tool for that. It's not great on long lenses or macro or tilt/shift or lowest light or highest resolution but for those situations, there are other options and there's no point Leica or anyone trying to push the M where it doesn't want to go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcoombs Posted June 9, 2009 Share #67 Posted June 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) We all know where the sweet spot of M photography is and it's the finest tool for that. It's not great on long lenses or macro or tilt/shift or lowest light or highest resolution but for those situations, there are other options and there's no point Leica or anyone trying to push the M where it doesn't want to go. That, frankly, is the most intelligent post I've seen here in some time. Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 9, 2009 Share #68 Posted June 9, 2009 We all know where the sweet spot of M photography is and it's the finest tool for that. Unfortunately for the M, that "sweet spot" is getting smaller not larger. And for many photographers, it is very hard to justify. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted June 9, 2009 Share #69 Posted June 9, 2009 Unfortunately for the M, that "sweet spot" is getting smaller not larger. And for many photographers, it is very hard to justify.Maybe but from what I heard from the guy from the NL Leica import company they were pleased with the M8x sales so far (and especially with the 'Safari'). He seemed happy enough. And, yes, there would be an argument that Leica prices are heading in the wrong direction. Even if you do not actually lose money (which you don't in general) the capital outlay is impressive, and there are plenty of photographers far more talented than I am that do not have any capital to lay out in the first place. That would be my major concern for Leica (as a CEO which I am not): they need to have a small fish to catch a bigger fish. Edit: and so ad-infinitum (for the physicists around here) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 9, 2009 Share #70 Posted June 9, 2009 Actually there is a lot new under the sun. Most p&s camera can shoot macro and they are not reflex cameras... With those P&S we view the world behind the lens exactly like with reflex cameras. A RF has an optical viewfinder and a rangefinder right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted June 9, 2009 Share #71 Posted June 9, 2009 With those P&S we view the world behind the lens exactly like with reflex cameras. A RF has an optical viewfinder and a rangefinder right? Actually, it is more like with a view camera, as there is no mirror. And just like every other camera, the M Leica has a lens that would work well with live view. The inclusion of an optical viewfinder/rangefinder in no way precludes the benefit of through the lens viewing. Just as my p&s camera has an optical viewfinder and live view. Linhof Technikas, Speed Graphics and other cameras have a rangefinder, an optical viewfinder, a wire frame finder, and through the lens viewing for more critical work. For the life of me, I can't see the problem with including this feature. It is a digital camera isn't it? I guess if you don't ever have the need to frame accurately with the M or make use of the other benefits that come with live view, then not including it in the M will work for you. Perhaps enough people will always feel this way to buy all of the M digital cameras that Leica ever wants to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 10, 2009 Share #72 Posted June 10, 2009 As the risk of sounding like a stuck record, the Panasonic G1 provides just the sort of flexibility it would be good to have in an M - Live View for when you want it, viewfinder for when you don't. Granted, we'd want a "proper" viewfinder instead of the EVF to retain the "M-ness" and of course we'd want much better IQ with Leica glass. There's nothing which says there can only be one Leica digital camera capable of using M lenses and nothing which says any such camera has to derive its DNA from the M3 in the way it looks and handles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 10, 2009 Share #73 Posted June 10, 2009 Why not adding live view to RFs if it may help AF confirm, i don't mind at all provided we can use the VF the same way as always. This would change in no case what makes a rangefinder a rangefinder: an optical viewfinder and a rangefinder. An M8 would stay a rangefinder with live view. A G1 will never be so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 10, 2009 Share #74 Posted June 10, 2009 Unfortunately for the M, that "sweet spot" is getting smaller not larger. And for many photographers, it is very hard to justify. How can the ideal situations in which to use an M be getting smaller? These situations will always be there, and the M will always be ideal for shooting them. Making an M into some sort of Frankenstein, with add-on bits to force it to do work it was never designed to, is like putting a Porsche engine in a Beetle. It might go, but it's completely unusable in practical terms. Sometimes, one just has to accept that one needs to use the right tool for the right job. And adding a Live View screen on the back of an M isn't going to make it the perfect camera for all situations Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 10, 2009 Share #75 Posted June 10, 2009 Why not if it works? I don't care personally as i have no focusing problems and i don't use the LCD during shootings, but AF confirm would be usefull for those who cannot focus their RF accurately don't you think so? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 10, 2009 Share #76 Posted June 10, 2009 AF confirmation is different from forcing the M into a hole it isn't suited for though. In 12 month's time, Leica will have (excluding the Panasonics), three model ranges that cover most if not all photographic situations. They are not, IMHO, going to wrench the M into places where an R10 is much better suited. "Jack of all trades" comes to mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 10, 2009 Share #77 Posted June 10, 2009 ...They are not, IMHO, going to wrench the M into places where an R10 is much better suited.... I hope so as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 10, 2009 Share #78 Posted June 10, 2009 Why not if it works? I don't care personally as i have no focusing problems and i don't use the LCD during shootings, but AF confirm would be usefull for those who cannot focus their RF accurately don't you think so? Why not indeed? The M8 has an AE option and Jpg, both of which many of us never use, and those don't get in the way either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted June 10, 2009 Share #79 Posted June 10, 2009 Actually there is a lot new under the sun. Most p&s camera can shoot macro and they are not reflex cameras. A lot of p&s and EVF cameras have long lenses too. Technology now makes it possible to add functionality to the M system without using a reflex mechanism. To address the posted concerns of the OP, all Leica needs to do is add a 24 meg+ full frame sensor, live view, and a clip on EVF to the M line. The lenses that can't cover the full frame can be used in crop mode. The other lenses can be used in full frame. The EVF or live view LCD can be used when you want to shoot with a fisheye, tilt/shift, macro, long lenses, or whenever you need: 1. accurate framing, 2. to look out for lens flare 3. to adjust a polarizer or graduated filter 4. get focus confirmation 5. use a remote monitor - e.g. to adjust items on a still life set without going back and forth to the camera. And R lenses and other lenses will work on such a body. The upshot is that this will take nothing away from the M design yet will offer much more versatility and likely would make the M into a more viable choice for some photographers, thus increasing sales. What will be the advantage for the M to be pretty much the only camera without live view? (Many MF camera users would love to have live view too but at least many of them solve some of the issues via a reflex system.) I think you are on the button, the basic ideas would appear to answer what I am looking for....possibly with some linkage from and to the M8++ (M9) body.........Technology can fix issues and widen the appeal of the M "system". I do not know what EVF is (nor OP by the way), nor exactly what you mean by "live view". What I do hear (eg Jaapv and other postings) is that if you have a Leica M you should consider you have a first class rangefinder camera, use it in a point & shoot mode and not consider it as a system camera. I think that this is wrong, and defeatist. Surely today's technology can elevate the M8 / M9 to become a new generation system offering. I accept that the M8 can go into the system arena by using a visoflex and Telyt lenses...this is what I am doing. However is that really the message that Leica will use when trying to attract new leica users. Specifically: "Buy an M8 at £3k plus £6 to £8k in lenses and you can only do point and shoot photographs....anything else Mr New Leica client ....see what you can pickup on the secondhand market, or buy an SLR that we do not make anymore!" Some people like Jaapv have an M8, Visoflex with lenses thru to 800mm, and then a digital module back for the R system and presumably a bunch of R lenses to go with it....Frankly the excellence of his photos speak for themselves, they are superb. I envy the kit and his ability to use it. However: 1) Jaapv investment is significant, and I wonder how many people would make that investment. 2) Leica are very unclear about their product roadmap, and this is worrying me as a user since if they get it wrong the value of my kit will implode, and new items will not be available. The issues are as I understand them: a) S camera....few people have seen one! > My dealer has back orders since months, but only a few ! > There is concern at dealers that the price of a body is runoured to be £17K and the lenses ...who knows? > There is further concern that Leica may opt for the approach that Hasselblad took with their new product launch...Dealers take the order, camera is shipped to client directly after setting up, dealer gets a nominal say 5% for his trouble. Dealer client relationship becomes distant, and dealer profits drop! > Leica seem to be putting huge emphasis on the "S" at the expense of existing product roadmaps...so my dealer has now over 6 new Noctilux's on order and the only lucky guy seems to be Eric Clapton..who received his! There is no 12mm or 15 mm for M series. The M9 full frame is rumoured but not yet announced and when it comes where does it fit against a M8.2 in terms of price? (M8: £2500, M8.2: £3900, M9: £4000 to £5000???) The Leica Pradovit projector......a superb machine it seems judging from the spec. and I know the technolgy well since as European tech director of Texas instruments (previous life) I was involved in the DLP program. I own an inFocus DLP at £5k, which today probably sells for £3K, the Sim2 is about £4K ...and now with a similar spec Leica Pradovit at £8K+ My view is this just as with the S2 it will be a diffult sell unless massively discounted. c) Leica are selling via SH photo in Germany the old "R" stock with up to 70% off. Leicafotografie has a full page ad. I actually thought maybe I should buy some of this absoluteley superb stuff.....but with no R9 or R10 digital back now, nor confirmed as planned for the future, nor a commitment to release future "R" products ....well I think it is too risky for me at least!? Against the above backdrop I repeat that the Leica sales channel seems "difficult": > Paris Leica Boutique was set up as factory owned ...Has this been a great success? I am told it has now gone independant > London Boutique (Mayfair) being built by the factory....How will the existing dealers react and be treated: > My dealer has six Noctilux on order as they are in short supply as always happens with new Leica product...in future will he get them or will Mayfair get priority? > Will clients at Mayfair get £500 cash back in the shop (rather than as a cheque later) and will Mayfair clients get deals?!! In my view I am seeing Leica as living in hope that the S2 , the Pradovit projector and factory boutiques will build a viable future. I am amazed that they do not build in the short term on existing strengths (M 8, R system and current dealer network) before going into new adventures. Turning the rangefinder M system into a true system camera as suggested by AlanG makes sense to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted June 10, 2009 Share #80 Posted June 10, 2009 d) wait and see e) be concise Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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