thehouseflogger Posted June 1, 2009 Share #1 Posted June 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) A while back I posted a message regarding getting correct exposure with my 24mm Emlarit. I have just shot a wedding and I have noted the following tendancies. 1. Even when using increasing under exposure over ride I cannot get the Histogram to shift more over to the right. 2. Sometimes to my suprise the camera suddenly goes up to 1250 one shot and for the same framing reverts back to say 320 the next ! 3. When I focus and meter off the subjects face and then reframe whilst keeping it all locked in I get some weird results, usually over exposure. I am getting more and more determined to crack the exposure part of using this kit - but at the moment I just cannot rely on the M8 during the more important phases of the day. If only I could get used to a way of working around this, a lot of my shoots are just people taken at 8 to 10 feet (say a talking group or a table of revellers in full gurgle) and as such are quite similar. I would be so grateful if anybody can help - I think this is such a fundamental thing I am trying to do - is it just a case of keep on trying ? I have tried going manual - but because I am usually wide open before even thinking of moving the red sideways arrows I am limited to going below 1/60th sec, which is getting a bit slow to freeze the action. Could I have an example of a perfect histogram for a typical shot ? When I am looking through the finder with this lens how large is the area of the frame controlling the light reading - how large and what shape is this part, and if I frame to keep extra light or dark areas outside this area will the exposure become more reliable? I am hoping that others might have these problems and if they do could they own up so I don't feel I am the only dunce around! With best wishes Guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 Hi thehouseflogger, Take a look here I'm sorry everybody, but I still need help !. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wstotler Posted June 1, 2009 Share #2 Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) Guy, Doesn't appear you're a dunce. The strong center-weighed metering of the M8 plus the Auto ISO is tricky to master. Others will chip in with help (I'm sure), but here's my "works for me every time" solution: (1) Set ISO manually. Recommend not going above 640. (Others will use 1250. I won't. Unless it's a dire emergency.) (2) Ignore the M8's in-camera metering. (3) Use an incident light meter to sample the light and get a reading. (I've been using the Gossen Digisix, which has been very reliable although some have complained about it. Dial in the EV and then tinker with the results manually on the click wheel to readily see speed and aperture setting combos.) Want different ratios of light/dark? Sample with the incident meter in a slightly different place. -->Missed point: Measuring the damn light is a critical (and not so often mentioned) basic piece of the equation and an incident light meter really helps. (4) Manually set speed and aperture on the M8. (Decide on speed and then set aperture OR decide on aperture and then set speed.) When I started to work this way (as suggested kindly by members of this forum during several threads) 95% of my exposure-related woes went away. (I will use the in-camera meter in a pinch--throw it onto A, for example--but I assume risk when I do this.) I'm not blaming the M8 here, BTW. I'm blaming me. I just couldn't get the "knack" of using the in-camera metering on a consistent basis. Yes! I've viewed the illustrations of how much the M8 meters of a given scene with a given lens. Yes! I've tried the "meter the back of your hand" trick. Yes! I've tried metering per Zone System "rules." Yes! And. . . . Knowing and using all of that didn't work for me. For me, incident meter = almost science. And. . . . Bonus! Using this way of working has improved my shots taken with other cameras (and equipment), too, because I can take my metering technique with me when I swap platforms. Good luck--interested to hear the other potential answers to your question. Thanks, Will Edited June 1, 2009 by wstotler Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted June 1, 2009 Share #3 Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) I fine it not getting use to the camera as it is getting use to the lighting of your subjects. When you say setting the camer to underexposure override are you talking about dialing in a minus (-) setting in the SET menu? If the face is the brightest part of the image that is what you want to meter on. If you meter off the face, on a darker area, then the face will be overexposed. I suggest you drop the Auto ISO feature until you get some of the metering down. I have no problem getting the correct exposures using the M8 meter and depending on the day (read that as available light) and what is in the image I am trying to capture I will use a minus or no exposure comp. Edited June 1, 2009 by Shootist Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted June 1, 2009 Share #4 Posted June 1, 2009 Guy, It sound like you're wrestling with the vagaries of AutoIso, which appear to have little logic or consistency when faced with too many variables. I agree with the previous posters and recommend reverting to manual if you want to nail exposure. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehouseflogger Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share #5 Posted June 1, 2009 gentlemen, thank you for your three replies. I have to go out now and do the shopping/ bath the kids, read stories etc, so I will look at what you say and start again tomorrow. I am gratefull for your help. One thing quickly in passing - how do I use a light meter when I am continually mving around a marquee of 16 to 18 tables, with one half of the tent lit by side light from plastic walls and the other by the light glow through the roof and candles and uplighters etc? Talk further tomorrow but please keep the help flowing... Best Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 1, 2009 Share #6 Posted June 1, 2009 You must learn to expose manually with the M8. And I don't mean just what the in camera meter says but using the meter as merely a guide and overexposing and underexposing as need be in relation to the zone system. Under most circumstances it is a fine enough meter, but under tricky lighting it's up to you to correct on the fly. It would be nice if it had 50 point matrix metering ala a Nikon but it doesn't. Work with it for a while in fully manual and I'm sure you'll come to get correct results. Also keep in mind if you have a lit subject against a dark background you will need to zoom in on the subject's face during playback to get an idea of the true histogram of the subject's exposure. Otherwise the histogram will read to the right because it senses mostly darkness. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted June 1, 2009 Share #7 Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) What Charles said about exposure and manual, and what Ed said about losing auto ISO for now (but see below). And ignore the histo. Well, not completely, but ignore it more than use it, because since you're shooting RAW, it lies (it only reads the JPEG exposure, and it doesn't tell you much anyway. Yes, I know that's heresy, but it's true). ANYWAY, I'll once again give you a wedding shooter's tip on getting the exposure correct for the M8 using manual (actually works for my m6 too). Look, the center weight on the M8 is so weighty as almost to be a spot for all practical purposes. Ok, a very wide spot (which means it's not a spot, technically), but matrix-metering this ain't So now usually the most important detail to hold in any shot at a wedding is the bride's dress. Meter off that, adjust exposure so you're getting the right triangle telling you you're just a stop over and shoot. That will put the dress at RGB 242/242/242 (if it's white) or thereabouts. Now, in colour especially, the dynamic range of the scene is often greater than you can possibly capture. So it's up to you to 1) equalize the DR with flash, some other ambient light, a reflector, or by blocking light OR 2) blowing unimportant parts of the frame out OR 3) sinking unimportant parts into shadow. Unfortunately, at a wedding, the bride's dress is almost never unimportant. You usually need to add some light in the shadows to keep faces in a relatively good relation to the dress. BTW--you can use the same tip with the grooms (usually dark) suits. Just set the little arrow so it's just underexposed and you will hold detail in the shadows without making them too light. In either case, if the light doesn't change, you just keep shooting. Once you're comfortable with this, then you can turn auto ISO back on for those times you're literally running back and forth from bright sun into a dark church Edited June 1, 2009 by Jamie Roberts Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted June 1, 2009 Share #8 Posted June 1, 2009 I keep on following Jamie's wise comments! Again - ECHO.... move away from Auto ISO for the moment... You usually have a chance to take a couple of test shots - use these to get an ISO that feels right - 640 is usuable for an awful lot of interior situations If the light's stable, then go manual, meter for highlights and shoot until the light changes. If you're in a rapidly changing light scenario, I tend to go back to A mode, meter for highlights, LOCK, reframe, focus and shoot. I also know it's a bummer when you're under wedding shoot pressure... Hope this helps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted June 1, 2009 Share #9 Posted June 1, 2009 Guy - What Chris approved about what Jamie said about what Charles said. I too went through considerable difficulties getting the feel of the M8's metering. I can manually meter a subject and get an optimal histogram with my first exposure pretty much every time now. You might need to do what I did and just make lots and lots of throwaway exposures [hundreds in my case] to get a good sense of how the meter 'sees' until it is incorporated into your technique and your manual metering is trustworthy. Personally, I found the auto metering to be unusable for my way of working, so I had to become comfortable with manually metering the M8, and now it is not a concern when I'm working. I think forgetting about making images and practising making exposures for a while will give you confidence and a reliable technique, and a sense of when to throw in a shutter speed tweak to the suggested exposure. ................ Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwind Posted June 2, 2009 Share #10 Posted June 2, 2009 How do you manually meter an m8? Setting f/stop, speed and ev manually? Any guidelines for this? Thanks Dennis Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilihead Posted June 2, 2009 Share #11 Posted June 2, 2009 Buy a Nikon D700. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted June 2, 2009 Share #12 Posted June 2, 2009 Buy a Nikon D700. And use Zeiss glass on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 2, 2009 Share #13 Posted June 2, 2009 And buy an exposure meter that that records both reflected and incident light and, preferably, is a spot meter too Understanding how exposure works is fundamental to achieving quality images. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted June 2, 2009 Share #14 Posted June 2, 2009 My technique is based on setting the aperture and then adjusting speed. I take readings through the camera from various areas of the frame and decide whether I need to over or under expose to either open up shadows or avoid blown highlights. It is not perfect but I can work quickly without having to refer to a hand-held meter. Personally, I think the sensor of the M8 is a very forgiving (and often underrated) component. Using CS3 and more recently Viveza it is astonishing what can be safely opened up from shadows or reclaimed from highlights, especially if you know how to select areas from layers in CS3. I would never use auto-iso, I lost too many good shots on my former Nikon kit when I used it and really it is for P&S no-brainer photography and not commercial/serious work. LouisB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Pope Posted June 2, 2009 Share #15 Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) How do you manually meter...setting f/stop, speed and ev manually? Have to admire your bravery in choosing rangefinder photography before discovering any curiorisity about these issues. Edited June 2, 2009 by Steve Pope Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 2, 2009 Share #16 Posted June 2, 2009 How do you manually meter an m8?Setting f/stop, speed and ev manually? Any guidelines for this? Thanks Dennis Well, for starters get the speed dial off "A" and start turning rings. "Leica M, Advanced Photo School" by Günther Osterloh might be a good book to read. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwind Posted June 2, 2009 Share #17 Posted June 2, 2009 Buy a Nikon D700. I have a d700 and d300. Both are gathering dust in the cabinet. Dennis Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwind Posted June 2, 2009 Share #18 Posted June 2, 2009 Have to admire your bravery in choosing rangefinder photography before discovering any curiorisity about these issues. I want to be a better photographer and not just a point and shooter. I didn't know about the issues until after I purchased the M8. One has to start somewhere. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwind Posted June 2, 2009 Share #19 Posted June 2, 2009 Well, for starters get the speed dial off "A" and start turning rings. "Leica M, Advanced Photo School" by Günther Osterloh might be a good book to read. Thanks for the reference and I'll start getting off the 'A' and playing more with it and i'll get the book. Dennis Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 2, 2009 Share #20 Posted June 2, 2009 It is fun too Don't forget many of us here have the unfair advantage of having used M6 cameras or similar for many years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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